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Transcript provided by Katilyn Miller.
Hubba-Wha?! Episode 308 – The Great Conjunction
[Clip from The Dark Crystal plays]
NARRATOR: Another world. Another time. In the age of wonder. A thousand years ago, this land was green and good. Until the crystal cracked. For a single piece was lost, a shard of the crystal.
[Clip ends]
[Hubba-Wha?! intro theme music plays]
BECCA PETUNIA: Welcome to (in echo sounding voice) Hubba-Wha?! (in normal voice) A Muppet Quiz Show Brought To You By ToughPigs.com! It’s your favorite quiz show that’s not like the others! Here, Muppet fans, Muppet professionals, and everyone in between competes for fabulous prizes and to see who’s this week’s Toughest Pig!
I’m your host, Becca Petunia of ToughPigs.com! And today, the prophecy is finally fulfilled. That’s right, after two seasons of dozens of fans begging and pleading, I’ve written an episode themed around Jim Henson’s classic fantasy epic, The Dark Crystal. That’s right! Everyone loves talking about The Dark Crystal. It’s a beautiful, weird, unforgettable film. Look, I know that ToughPigs founder Danny Horn once claimed that The Dark Crystal is the opposite of entertainment. But Danny, I promise I will make this episode entertaining.
Well, just as Jen was taught by the Mystics, I was taught by the powerful elders who run Muppet Wiki. That’s why I wrote these questions with help from that wonderful resource. This time, I also referred to a couple of other sources, namely rewatching the film itself and the phenomenal documentary The World of the Dark Crystal. Also I used some other sources that, well, you’ll hear a little bit about when we get there. But speaking of all that, let’s agree to play fair today. Please don’t look at Muppet Wiki or any other resource during this game. Only someone as immoral as a Skeksis would cheat at something this important. Plus, how are you going to watch a documentary while recording a podcast? That’s just rude.
Anyway, before we can set off on our great quest, we’ve got to meet our heroes. That’s why we’re going to play our first game, (in echo sounding voice) To Tell a Face. (In normal voice)
Contestants, buzz in to answer some questions about yourself. Whoever buzzes in first will get introduced first. Ready? Go.
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: All right. Katilyn. So, Katilyn, what is your name?
KATILYN MILLER: My name is Katilyn.
BECCA: All right, like we’re doing this season, Katilyn, what pronouns should we use for you?
KATILYN: Like Gonzo, I’m cool with whatever but let’s just go with they/them for ease of use.
BECCA: All right. Now Katilyn, what is your history with The Muppets and the works of Jim Henson? You know, you are, I think, our newest Toughpigs staff writer. And you also have been doing all of the transcripts for basically all of our podcasts at this point, something that I am so grateful for. But yeah, what’s your history with the Muppets in general besides that?
KATILYN: Yeah, I’m trying. Toughpigs has got a great catalog of podcasts. Definitely listen to all of them. My history with the Muppets is really lost in the mists of time, back in the age of, you know, wonder, and etc. Because I don’t remember a time without the Muppets. Sesame Street was like one of the only things we could get at my grandmother’s house. I even remember watching Fraggle Rock, I’m pretty sure when it aired. We didn’t have HBO. I’m not sure how that was possible, but, you know. And you know, Fraggle Rock being one of my favorites. And then like we just caught it anytime, it was on TV.
I just remember my family cackling over the Señor Wences episode of The Muppet Show. And since then I’ve gotten really into the philosophy of Jim Henson and just how joyous all of his projects were. And the wonderful things that people say when people have worked on them. That is what I love most about Henson properties and so it’s been…how could I not enjoy what comes from joy?
BECCA: That’s a very deep way to put it. And Katilyn, how about your history with The Dark Crystal? When did you first see this movie? Did you grow up with it? Or is it something you came to later?
KATILYN: It’s a movie that my mother particularly enjoyed. And I think it had a lot to do with my development as a fantasy author because just the world building in this place. It’s everything that a fantasy writer dreams of being able to put into their books. And so, you know, just visually it’s been a huge influence. And I can’t tell you when I first watched it.
But again, whenever it was on television, my mother would stick it on and we would watch because that’s basically how we did most movies. Doesn’t matter how many times we saw it, we put it on and we watched it. And yeah, just sticks in the brain like that.
BECCA: Yeah, and I guess we should mention, you are also a fantasy author, like you said. We didn’t even mention that earlier.
KATILYN: I mean there’s not much out there yet. But we’ll get to that at the end.
BECCA: Okay, yes, that’s true. And hey, there will be. This episode isn’t being released for like another three weeks. So maybe you’ll have written the world’s greatest book by then.
KATILYN: There’s time. [laughs]
BECCA: Yeah but either way, Katilyn, I am going to give you 20 points for all of those wonderful answers.
KATILYN: Heck yeah.
BECCA: And now let’s move on to our second contestant. Second contestant, what is your name?
REN GOETZ: My name is Ren. Like Jen, but with an R.
BECCA: That’s true, that’s how spelling works. And Ren, what pronouns should we use for you?
REN: Also they/them please.
BECCA: Okay. Anyway, so Ren, what is your history with the Muppets in general?
REN: Yeah. So a lot like Katilyn. There was not a time before Sesame Street. I knew Sesame Street like I knew television and air. I wound up watching Sesame Street fairly long into my life. I think I stopped watching Sesame Street the year I turned 11, which I know because it was the year that Abby Cadabby was introduced.
And I had mixed feelings about that. And I was like, if I know enough about the production of Sesame Street and its new characters to have informed opinions, I should maybe step away from Sesame Street. You know, that’s cringy. That’s for children. And then I got really into…so I kind of stepped away from the Muppets for a little bit. And then as a teenager I got really into the creature shop side of things and we can talk about that more in the next question.
But the core Muppet canon, and this is where I’m like an outlier in a lot of Muppet fan stuff, kind of passed me by until Covid hit really. So it’s kind of, different properties came into my life at different times.
BECCA: Yeah, that’s really interesting, Ren. You know, again that is part of why I brought you on, is I know that your areas of expertise kind of lie outside of the quote unquote core Muppets. But you do know a decent amount about those too. And of course you wrote what was voted the best Toughpigs article of all time, right?
REN: I’m blushing. [laughs]
BECCA: You beat me by one vote for that honor. And, you know, I couldn’t have lost to a better article. Because you of course wrote the Gonzo, the great non-binary icon article which I’m sure I’ll have linked in the show notes.
REN: To date my one claim to fame on Toughpigs. I feel like it’s a little bit of stolen valor calling myself a Toughpigs writer when I have one.
BECCA: Oh you’re gonna have more soon. You’re gonna have more soon. We’ll talk.
REN: Well, we will.
BECCA: And so, as you predicted, my next question is going to be when did you first see The Dark Crystal?
REN: Also kind of a Covid project. I think I mentioned a little bit before, I got obsessed with David Bowie as a teenager. We had a copy of The Works. When I was again, like 11, 12, so I kind of went straight from Sesame Street to Labyrinth, if you need to know why I am the way I am. [laughs] A little bit.
BECCA: The David Bowie obsession probably explains a little bit too about why you are the way you are.
REN: Oh, yes, absolutely very much.
BECCA: But it’s interesting how all us GNC folks had our David Bowie phase.
REN: That little moment in the sun, that little…all his different eras and transformations and cis man transitions in his career. But yeah. So The Dark Crystal kind of emerged as a gap in my knowledge of Jim Henson’s filmography that I then plugged up fairly recently during my little Covid binge of Henson and Muppet projects.
BECCA: You know, it is interesting though because it seems like both of you came into Dark Crystal liking it, which is like surprisingly rare in the Muppet fan community. As I joked about Danny Horn hating The Dark Crystal earlier. It feels like there was a prevailing theme on Toughpigs for years that The Dark Crystal was the boring one no one liked and we’d rather talk about all of the other movies instead.
And, you know, I’m glad to be doing my part to sort of move away from that. Even if I am the person who got somewhat yelled at on Twitter for saying that I think the documentary The World of The Dark Crystal is better than the movie The Dark Crystal. But (clears throat) well we’ll get there.
KATILYN: Well hey, if you want Dark Crystal hot takes, there’s no one better than fans to actually give them.
REN: And we can talk about this later or, you know, but I was also really into Lord of the Rings in high school and I feel like it’s not a one-to-one comparison. But I mean, Katilyn was talking about being a fantasy author, and I don’t know if you want to engage in this digression on Tolkien and that mythology. But it’s very much of a kind, I would say, with Tolkien’s works, this expansive world that you can dive into little parts of.
KATILYN: Yeah just preparing for this, I scanned through The World of The Dark Crystal, the book. And it’s like its own manuscript of, you know, found from Aughra and it’s like wow. So like yeah, you can get deep.
BECCA: Yeah, and both the Lord of the Rings and The Dark Crystal had a prequel TV show made for a streaming service and one of them was good and one of them wasn’t.
[Ren gasps]
BECCA: So Ren, I will give you 20 points. I will move on from any discourse about the Lord of the Rings TV show.
[Katilyn laughs]
BECCA: And we will enter our first real trivia game.
You know, one of the things about The Dark Crystal that you guys were just talking about is that it really has a much deeper lore system than most of the other Jim Henson projects. Even without reading any of the books, which I did not do to prepare for this episode, or rewatching the TV show, which I did not do to prepare for this episode, there’s still so many specific creatures, cultures and customs in the world of Thra. And like any good fantasy series, all of these things have names.
That’s why we’re going to play a game called (in echo sounding voice) What’s the Word on the Street?
[Clip from Sesame Street]
MURRAY
MONSTER: Hi, I’m Murray from Sesame Street and I’m looking for the word on the street. What’s the word on the street?
[Clip ends]
BECCA: (in normal voice) In this game, I’m going to ask you both specific questions about specific words or terms from the film. That’s it. Each of these questions will be worth one point. Just buzz in when you know the answer but please wait until I finish reading the question so the Podlings at home can play along.
All right, let’s go. Question one. During The Great Conjunction, what three objects are aligned?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: All right, Katilyn.
KATILYN: The suns.
BECCA: It is the suns. Correct. Question two. What’s the name of the creatures that raised Kira?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Ren.
REN: The Podlings.
BECCA: Those are the Podlings, correct. Question three. What’s the name of the giant crab-like monsters that the Skeksis control?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: That was Katilyn by like a third of a second. Katilyn?
KATILYN: Those are the Garthim.
BECCA: Those are the Garthim. What do the Skeksis want to extract from Kira?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: I think it was Ren.
BECCA: Oh, it was Ren. Look at that. You guys are so close that I’m not seeing it. I’m sorry. Ren, you take this one.
REN: Her essence.
BECCA: Right. Or specifically, the full name of this?
REN: Her life essence?
BECCA: Well, no the specific kind of essence that they’re looking for?
REN: The Gelfling essence.
BECCA: Yeah, the essence of Gelfling. I’ll give it to you for Gelfling essence.
These are the gentle creatures known for their intense speed.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: That was Katilyn.
KATILYN: The Landstriders.
BECCA: Those are the landstriders. Correct. Question six. This is the process by which Gelflings can share memories.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Ren.
REN: Dreamfasting.
BECCA: That is dreamfasting. Correct.
REN: Which Jim Henson then took and gave to Fraggles.
BECCA: That’s true. They can do that. They can even do that in the new show.
KATILYN: Where’s the Sidebottom of Dark Crystal?
[Ren laughs]
BECCA: Probably in one of the comics because I have not read all of the comics. But there’s probably like Jenbottom.
[Jen and Katilyn laugh]
BECCA: Question seven. This is the ritual that the Skeksis use to settle disputes.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: (shouting) Trial by stone.
BECCA: This is Trial by Stone.
REN: Oh, I’m so glad you yelled it. I’m so glad you yelled it as well.
BECCA: Yes, thank you. Thank you for yelling it.
[Katilyn laughs]
BECCA: And now, we all just need to make weird guttural noises for like 30 seconds straight after you yelled it. But listen, my voice is already going, so I’m not gonna do that.
Question eight. This is the phrase that Jen uses when trying to define what writing is.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: Words that stay.
BECCA: Correct. Words that stay. This is a slimy, aquatic creature whose meat is eaten by the Skeksis.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Ren.
REN: Nebrie.
BECCA: That is the Nebrie. Correct. Question 10. This is the device used to amplify the Dark Crystal’s effects and brainwash slaves.
[Clock ticking sound]
BECCA: The Skeksis call it this in the movie.
REN: You got me.
BECCA: This isn’t even from the book.
[Clock ticking stops]
[Katilyn makes prolonged thinking noise]
BECCA: It is, of course, the reflector.
[Ren groans]
KATILYN: I was going to say a mirror just for something.
BECCA: [laughs] I mean it is a mirror.
REN: Basically.
BECCA: Question 11. These are the creatures that do reconnaissance for the Skeksis
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: The crystal bats.
BECCA: The crystal bats. Correct. And the last one of these. This is the creature that the Skeksis eat for dessert.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
REN: (imitating a Skeksis) Crawlies.
BECCA: I’m sorry, what was that?
REN: (in normal voice) I can do that without doing a Skeksis’s impression. I promise. Crawlies.
BECCA: It is Crawlies. Ren, can you take that Skeksis impression again. Just so I make sure I’ve got a clean recording of it?
[Katilyn laughs]
REN: [laughs] (imitates a Skeksis) Crawlies.
KATILYN: I think we should do all of this in Skeksis.
REN: Oh god, the Skeksis language.
BECCA: I’ll probably… I’m almost definitely going to cut this out, but I’ve been working really hard. I actually now go to a voice trainer every week and I’m trying to like soften my voice because it’s part of the transition process for me. It makes me feel better about my transition. And part of that is like trying to learn how to better take care of my voice. So, let me tell you, I’m not sure I’m ready to do Skeksis voices right now. I think that Dr. [redacted with horn honks] is going to be a bit troubled if I come in doing Skeksis voices.
KATILYN: We can do Mystic chants. For you.
BECCA: Yes. Okay, okay, I appreciate it. Well, either way, nice work there. Now, you don’t need a whole orrery like Aughra to predict what time it is because it’s time for…
[Clip from Sesame Street plays]
NARRATOR: Beat the time.
[Cuckoo clock sounds]
[Applause]
[Clip ends]
BECCA: In today’s (in echo sounding voice) Beat the Time, (in normal voice) we’re going to be talking about the Skeksis and the Mystics. Obviously, these creatures are the most memorable part of The Dark Crystal.
Now, as you probably know, in the film, there are 10 Skeksis and 10 Mystics. But do you remember what jobs each of them have?
[Clip from Sesame Street plays]
TAMIR: J is for jobs and today at school, we’re going to be learning about all kinds of jobs.
[Clip ends]
BECCA: Okay. Starting with Ren, name a job title of a Skeksis or a Mystic. We will go back and forth between the two of you to see who can name more. If you can’t remember one or you get the answer wrong, your opponent will have the chance to steal. So, let me just clarify, we’re only looking for the 20 Skeksis and Mystics featured in the film, The Dark Crystal. Ones added later for the TV show or the books do not count. We’re also looking for titles, not names, because I wanted to make this a little easier for you both.
So for instance, on the TV show, they introduce a Skeksis named SkekMal the Hunter. If he counted, which he doesn’t, I would be looking for you to say the Hunter, not SkekMal, right?
REN: Okay.
BECCA: They each have a name and like a job. I’m looking for the jobs. And these are, of course, these are the job titles that they are referred to solely as in the final credits to the film The Dark Crystal. Their SkekMal-type names are not mentioned in the credits but all of their like jobs are listed there.
REN: Okay, because for a second I was very scared that it was going to be matching the names to the titles.
BECCA: No. I just didn’t think that was really possible for most fans but I know some of these are memorable. Some of them. Not all of them, but some of them.
So of course you don’t need to get all of them. You both know how (in echo sounding voice) Beat the time (in normal voice) works. But we are going to get started with Ren. Name a Skeksis or a Mystic.
REN: Gotta go with the classics. Gotta go with The Chamberlain first.
BECCA: The Chamberlain. Absolutely. Katilyn?
KATILYN: Let’s go with the Chanter.
BECCA: The Chanter is one of the Mystics. Correct. Ren.
REN: The Ornamentalist.
BECCA: The Ornamentalist. Correct. Katilyn.
KATILYN: Go back to the Mystics, the Weaver.
BECCA: The Weaver. Correct. Ren?
REN: Gonna try and steal Katilyn’s Mystic thunder and go for the Numerologist.
BECCA: The Numerologist. Correct. Katilyn
KATILYN: Well then. Back to the Skeksis.
[Becca laughs]
KATILYN: The Treasurer. Because every group needs a treasurer.
BECCA: It’s true. Ren.
REN: The Gourmand.
BECCA: The Gourmand. Correct.
KATILYN: And the Mystic counterpart is the Cook.
BECCA: The Cook. Absolutely.
REN: Okay. The Scientist. The Technologist?
BECCA: It’s the Scientist.
REN: Okay.
BECCA: You were right with the first one.
REN: Yep.
KATILYN: It’s name is SkekTek. So…[laughs]
BECCA: Yes. That’s the only one whose name, I remember. I think because SkekTek is just so much fun to say. And also, because he was voiced by Mark Hamill in the TV show.
REN: So good. So good.
BECCA: All right, back to you, Katilyn.
KATILYN: I will go with the Alchemist.
BECCA: All right, correct.
REN: I’ll say the Herbalist.
BECCA: The Herbalist. Correct. Jeez, I am impressed with how many of these you are getting because I know some but I don’t think I knew all of the Mystics at least. Anyway, Katilyn.
KATILYN: All right. The Scribe, a Mystic.
BECCA: The Scribe. Correct. Ren?
REN: I want to say…so Jen’s mentor, the teacher is their title just the Wisest Mystic?
BECCA: It is not the wisest Mystic.
REN: Do you know who I’m talking about? Do they have a title?
BECCA: I do. They do have a title.
REN: Oh. Oh.
BECCA: Jen calls them the wisest but that is not how they’re referred in the credits at least which is what I’m basing this on. I sat there. I rewatched my DVD. I paused it on the credits. I wrote these all down. So unfortunately, we are going to switch to Katilyn.
REN: Ooh. Yeah.
BECCA: Katilyn can you steal?
KATILYN: That Mystic would be the Master.
BECCA: That is the Master.
REN: Oh, okay. But wait, do I get to go again?
BECCA: No, because it’s now Katilyn’s turn.
REN: Okay.
KATILYN: Well, just steal this one. The Emperor.
BECCA: Correct.
REN: That’s what I was going to say.
BECCA: The Master’s counterpart is the Emperor. Now it’s Ren’s turn.
REN: Okay, so right. Yep. As soon as I thought of that, I should have said the Emperor first. But we’ll say the High Priest. Is that another one of them?
BECCA: There is none called the High Priest either. I’m sorry. So Katilyn, you get to steal.
REN: Oh dang.
KATILYN: Yeah, I think one of them acts as that but yeah, it’s not their official title.
REN: Yeah.
BECCA: Again, I’m just basing this off of the names in the credits.
REN: No, no. This is about pedantry. You can do this to me. It’s fine.
[Becca laughs]
REN: Don’t apologize for how, you know, whoever wrote these credits wrote these credits.
BECCA: And I do also want to, you know, say also again, maybe there’s a High Priest who’s in one of the books or the TV show. Because there’s a lot. There’s like a Mariner or something.
REN: It’s one of Jerry Nelson’s credits, I know. That much I’ve absorbed in my studying for this episode.
BECCA: I’m not sure because Jerry Nelson’s the Emperor, right?
REN: Right. So I think that was his…
BECCA: But he might have been someone else.
REN: …secondary sort of…Right.
BECCA: Anyway, Katilyn, you get to steal and then it is your turn.
KATILYN: So the Ritual Master.
BECCA: Is I think what you might be thinking of by the High Priest?
REN: I wouldn’t doubt that. I’m sure that’s right.
BECCA: And then Katilyn, another one.
KATILYN: For the Mystics, it would be the Ritual Keeper?
BECCA: It is not the Ritual Keeper.
KATILYN: Argh.
BECCA: So now, Ren, you get to go twice in a row.
REN: Okay. The General, who becomes the Emperor. I don’t think we’ve said.
BECCA: No. He is not called the General.
REN: Oh. Is he called the Garthim Master?
BECCA: He is called the Garthim Master. So that was your real turn. You don’t get a steal on the one you stole.
REN: Okay.
BECCA: But now we are going to bounce back to Katilyn. You get one, Katilyn. I know this is getting confusing because of right and wrong answers. [laughs]
KATILYN: All right. Who is… how many do we have left at this point?
REN: That’s a good questions.
BECCA: There’s two of each and I do not know if these are counterparts, the two–no, they’re not. Because some of them you’ve gotten without their counterpart. But there are two of each remaining.
KATILYN: So now it just becomes remembering who we haven’t said. Uuuuhhh…Have we said the Scroll Keeper?
BECCA: We did not say the Scroll Keeper.
KATILYN: Yes!
BECCA: So that is one. Back to Ren.
REN: Now I might be confusing this with the show, but the Artificer?
BECCA: The Artificer’s from the show.
REN: Aah.
BECCA: Katilyn, if you want to take two, you can.
KATILYN: [laughs] Let’s see. Who is left?
REN: Someone’s yelling at us.
KATILYN: Yes, I know that.
BECCA: I think we know who’s yelling at us.
REN: Yep. [laughs]
BECCA: It’s our friend, Cypress.
KATILYN: Nope. I can’t think of one. I’m sure it’s in there. But at this point…
BECCA: Okay. Well then I am gonna call it. So, first of all, the one you were thinking when you said the Ritual Keeper…
KATILYN: Uh-huh?
BECCA: That Mystic is referred to as the Ritual Guardian. The Ritual Guardian.
KATILYN: Guardian.
BECCA: So basically you just chose another word for keeper. But I wasn’t gonna give it to you. Then the remaining Mystic that you did not name was the Healer. I think that one is actually referred to in the film itself. I’m not sure, but I think maybe. And then, the only Skeksis you forgot was, of course, the Slave Master.
REN: I mean.
BECCA: But that was better than I thought and I don’t mean that as an insult against you guys. Some of these again very few of them are named in the film. Really just the Emperor, the Chamberlain, the Garthim Master, the Scientist. Like it’s very few. It’s like five of them. But anyway, let me just tally up the points real quick.
REN: I think you’re winning.
BECCA: It’s actually a fairly close game. I will say.
KATILYN: Hey, I have points so…
BECCA: Katilyn. Katilyn is in the lead. But right now, actually, I can share the score which I don’t usually do this early, but it’s a really close game. Katilyn is in the lead with 36 points. But Ren, you are trailing with 31 points, so really not that far off.
So and of course, nice work there. And of course, naming the Skeksis and the Mystics sure gets easier after the movie is over, and there are no Skeksis or Mystics to name anymore.
But anyway, one of the most interesting parts of The Dark Crystal to me, is all the behind the scenes stuff. And I know I said that for me, I almost prefer watching the making of documentary, than the film itself because I’m so interested in how all of these ideas and characters came to be. So, I decided that I was going to rewatch that documentary. And I decided that I was going to bring back a game from last season that I call (echo sounding voice) Secrets of the Muppets.
(in normal voice) In this game, I will ask you questions about the making of The Dark Crystal. Most of this info comes from the documentary. Although, some of it comes from Muppet Wiki. Each of these questions is worth two points. Buzz in if you know the answer but again, let’s wait until I finish saying the question first.
[Clip from The World of the Dark Crystal]
FRANK
OZ: The story of The Dark Crystal concerns a Gelfling. His name is Jen. He has lived with creatures called the Mystics who are very gentle, all his life. But he was orphaned. And they…They saved him. And now he’s…he’s about to go on a quest
[Clip ends]
BECCA: Question one. The Dark Crystal was released in 1982. When did Jim Henson start planning the film?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: In 1977.
BECCA: It is 1977. Correct.
KATILYN: I just remembered that it was five years before, and then I had to do math real quick and…
BECCA: [laughs] Yeah, it was five years from its inception to release. Question two. Jim Henson was inspired to make The Dark Crystal after seeing the work of which fantasy artist?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: That was Katilyn again by, again, a fraction of a second.
KATILYN: Brian Froud.
BECCA: It is Brian Froud who, of course, did all of the character design for the movie. But Jim had seen some of his earlier works first and was interested to make a movie with him.
REN: It’s all so gorgeous. I mean, that artwork probably not Brian Froud personally, but maybe Brian Froud personally.
KATILYN: And I love watching him draw it in the documentary.
BECCA: Yes.
REN: Right.
KATILYN: It’s amazing.
BECCA: You can see that in the documentary. Like I fancy myself a bit of an artist. Although like all artists, I’m a little hard on myself and always insult myself. But I can’t imagine. He makes it look so effortless. And I know he does that by just drawing constantly, but he looks so effortless. And you just see all of the shapes come together in this really beautiful way. It’s really, it’s really something.
Question, three. According to Jim Henson, what aspect of religion inspired the Skeksis designs?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
REN: I mean, I can guess.
BECCA: Ren?
REN: I’m just going to say the devil? The manifestation of evil.
BECCA: It is not the devil.
REN: Is that a religious concept?
BECCA: I mean, okay, I would count that as a religious concept but it is not the devil. But you’re thinking along the right lines. Katilyn?
KATILYN: Can you repeat the question?
BECCA: Yeah, so Jim Henson, in the documentary, mentions that a certain aspect of religious culture inspired the ideas for the Skeksis. What is this aspect of religious culture?
KATILYN: I guess it’s dualism. Good versus evil?
BECCA: It is not. It is the seven deadly sins.
KATILYN: Ohh!
REN: Ohhh.
BECCA: The original idea is that there was going to be one for each.
REN: Gluttony and…
BECCA: I guess you do still see that with the Gourmand and the Garthim Master as potentially gluttony and wrath.
KATILYN: They’ve all got envy.
BECCA: Yeah. Well, especially the Chamberlain. If we had to choose one, it’s the chamberlain, right? But like Yeah, I feel like the Ornamentalist.
REN: Fair distribution of wrath as well. [laughs]
BECCA: Yeah, I was gonna say. It didn’t stick and obviously, there are 10, so it especially didn’t stick. But he mentioned that in the documentary, I thought that was super interesting.
KATILYN: He does. I wrote it down even. [laughs]
BECCA: I didn’t know what to call that other than an aspect of religion and culture. Like I don’t know. But anyway.
Question four. According to Brian Froud, the Podlings are based on which food item.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: Potatoes.
BECCA: It is potatoes.
REN: Po-ta-toes.
KATILYN: Also he said that originally he wanted to put eyes all over them but then it didn’t quite work as a design. [laughs]
BECCA: [laughs] He was just really stuck on potatoes.
REN: Yeah, I mean, that would make them much less cute seeming than they are. I think he made the right choice.
BECCA: Yeah, no. Again, sometimes you have to kill your darlings and sometimes those darlings are 20 other eyes.
REN: You have to blind your darlings.
BECCA: Yeah. Question five. The design of the land striders was based on the talent of which type of performer.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Ren, by a second.
REN: Stilt walkers.
BECCA: It is stilt walkers. Literally they saw somebody walking on stilts on all fours and said, “We should probably design a creature based on that.”
REN: Just make it a horse.
KATILYN: Take this very difficult thing and make them do it.
BECCA: Question, six. Yeah, can you run while doing that as well? Could you run on stilts? I need you to be the fastest of all the animals while you’re on stilts.
Question six. Jim Henson feels that this race of creatures was the hardest to design.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: REN:
REN: Gelfling.
BECCA: It is the Gelflings. Question seven. Related, Jim Henson claims that this race of creatures was the hardest to perform.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: The Mystics.
BECCA: It is the Mystics. I was a little surprised by that when I was watching the documentary, but the idea of walking on your like walking hunched over was apparently very difficult.
KATILYN: None of those things sound like a piece of cake.
BECCA: Yeah.
REN: Maybe the Podlings who are just smaller and less articulated.
BECCA: The Podlings are just kind of like regular Muppets.
REN: Yeah.
BECCA: I mean, with a more realistic design obviously.
REN: Right. They’re like proto-Fraggles.
BECCA: Yeah.
REN: They got an easy one in there.
BECCA: You know, the Gelflings work similarly but there’s a lot of like subtle nuance to how you went to perform them when they try to make it so human.
REN: Their expressions.
BECCA: Yeah. But they are performed, you know, like Kermit. Of course, also, I should say performing a Muppet like Kermit or a Fraggle is also not easy but I guess I figured it would be by this point for Jim.
Question eight. The Skeksis originally spoke a language constructed by Alan Garner. Which two ancient languages inspired Alan Garner’s new language?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: Ancient Greek and Ancient Egyptian.
BECCA: It is Ancient Greek and Ancient Egyptian. So, I remember when I learned the fact that in the movie, originally the Skeksis, all of their scenes did not have any English dialogue, it blew my mind that they would try to make this into a movie.
KATILYN: I’m of the opinion it would have been better.
BECCA: Well, do you know, and this is not a question that I wrote down, but do you know, and I think I asked this on another episode of (in echo sounding voice) Hubba-Wha?! (in normal sounding voice) last season, do you know who wrote the dialogue for the later English translated Skeksis scenes?
KATILYN: I definitely came across that in my readings.
BECCA: Well, it was mentioned…I’m double checking this fact.
REN: In the deep texts. [laughs]
[Katilyn laughs]
REN: Sounds like something a Skeksis would say.
BECCA: So, what I said in the last season episode of (in echo sounding voice) Hubba-Wha?! (in normal voice) So the correct answer is actually of that is Dennis Lee, the lyricist for Fraggle Rock. Was again and this was before Fraggle Rock. But was brought in to rewrite some of the dialogue and help with ADR for, in particular, the Skeksis being retranslated into English.
Question nine. In the documentary, Frank Oz estimates the weight of the Garthim puppet. How heavy is a Garthim? I’ll give it to you if you’re within 10 pounds.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: 75 pounds.
BECCA: You are within 10 pounds.
KATILYN: Yes!
BECCA: It is 70 pounds.
REN: Oh my God.
BECCA: The Garthim costumes weigh 70 pounds.
KATILYN: I almost mentioned that during our earlier bit of discussion I’m like wait. [laughs]
[Becca laughs]
KATILYN: I do not want it give it away.
REN: Only answer the question. No additional trivia. None, no trivia in the discussions. Only discussions of Tolkien and unrelated things.
[Becca laughs]
KATILYN: Did that happen in an earlier episode?
BECCA: Did what happen?
KATILYN: Because I think in the Park Hopper episode, someone mentioned something. And you were like, “Shhh.”
BECCA: Oh yeah.
REN: Right. Like, don’t. Stop talking about stuff.
BECCA: They were talking about the Great Muppet Movie Ride and it wasn’t so much like, “Shh, shh.” But it was like well that is what we’re going to be talking about later. Like that didn’t reveal the answer to anything but it was like you guys are getting ahead of things. We have a whole round.
REN: You know too much.
BECCA: Yeah. Which they both did which is again, what usually happens on these shows.
And the last question in this round. Only three puppeteers from the usual Henson crew from The Muppet Show and Sesame Street have speaking roles in The Dark Crystal. Name those three puppeteers.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Ren.
REN: Jerry Nelson. I’m sure.
BECCA: Jerry Nelson is one.
REN: Steve Whitmire.
BECCA: Steve Whitmire is another. I’ll give you points for those two.
REN: This is where we get into… I’m pretty sure…Are we counting Brian Muehl?
BECCA: I am counting Brian Muehl because he was a regular on Sesame Street at this point.
REN: Oh, at the time. Yeah.
KATILYN: Bravo.
BECCA: You know, I’m gonna give you a little…I’m going to give you four points for that because you did just name three puppeteers. So I’ll at least give you a little more.
REN: Oh, wait. Was the answer not to do all three?
BECCA: It was.
REN: Oh, wait. So just give me the amount of points you said you were going to give me.
BECCA: Okay. Fine. I’ll be mean and take away two points.
[Katilyn laughs]
BECCA: You know what Brian Muehl? You don’t deserve extra points.
[Ren laughs]
BECCA: No, he does. He’s wonderful. Telly is great. Barkley is great. Wonderful.
REN: I almost said Louise Gold and I’m glad I didn’t.
BECCA: You, no, she doesn’t apparently have a speaking role.
REN: But I’m thinking of the TV shows, I think is what’s happening.
BECCA: It’s so interesting to me what they did, like what voices they did keep in. And what they didn’t and why. I was talking to a non-Muppet fan friend of mine and he was like, “I hated The Dark Crystal. You’re just watching these weird puppets, these weird creatures go around and they all sound like Miss Piggy.” And I was thinking to myself, it’s so weird because Frank Oz doesn’t speak at all in this movie and basically, none of the regular Muppet guys speak in this movie.
REN: And even Jerry Nelson isn’t really identifiable unless you know Scred as well. Which, who knows Scred?
[Katilyn laughs]
BECCA: Yeah. I mean I can tell it’s Jerry Nelson and I can tell but like Steve Whitmire and Brian Muehl definitely you can’t tell. And like Jerry, you can tell but Jerry also just has a voice. Like, I don’t know. It’s not like a silly voice.
REN: He could do it. He could do it.
KATILYN: Steve Whitmire does sound like his Fraggle character, Marlon.
BECCA: Oh that’s true. He is kinda like Marlon.
Anyway, it is now time for something completely different. When The Dark Crystal was originally released, there wasn’t much in the way of merchandise. However, you both know that I love talking about merchandise and you also probably know that 40 years later, we’re getting new Dark Crystal merch all the time.
This year, 2023, we got some amazing things. We got a one-to-one scale replica of the crystal shard. We got various Dark Crystal skate decks. You can buy them with or without wheels. And of course, most famously, we got some Dark Crystal hot sauces from Jade City Foods.
Now listen, I haven’t tried these hot sauces. Jade City Foods, if you’re listening and I will tag you in this, I have a great idea to record some videos using your hot sauces and put them on ToughPigs. So I hope you’re listening. If you can send me a box, I’d love it. I’d do some videos, it’d be great. But I’m going to give you free publicity anyway, because in this game, which I’m calling (in echo sounding voice) Monster Foodies (in normal voice) you are going to answer trivia questions about the Jade City Foods Dark Crystal hot sauces.
REN: [laughs] Oh boy.
KATILYN: [laughs I hope you’re ready for a lot of silence.
BECCA: Just roll with it, okay? Each of these hot sauce-themed questions is going to be worth three points. So really, it’s anyone’s game. As always, wait until I finish reading the question before you buzz in. It’s fine. You’re fine You’re both going to be fine. Here we go.
[Clip from Sesame Street plays]
COOKIE
MONSTER: Of course, we can help you because we are…
COOKIE MONSTER
AND
GONGER TOGETHER: Monster Foodies!
GONGER: Haha, yeah.
COOKIE
MONSTER: Okay, what we do first, Chef Gonger?
[Clip ends]
BECCA: Question one. The least spicy of all of The Dark Crystal hot sauces is a sweet and smoky sriracha mix with a 3 out of 10 heat index. Which character is it named after?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: Fizzgig.
BECCA: It is Fizzgig. Correct.
KATILYN: Yeah! [laughs]
BECCA: That hot sauce is of course called Fizzgig’s Fury. Question two. I guess, given the name of this hot sauce, that scotch bonnet peppers, mango and pineapple represent which part of The Dark Crystal?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Ren.
REN: The crystal shard.
BECCA: Not the crystal shard. No. Katilyn, care to steal?
REN: I mean that’s the part of it.
BECCA: [laughs] Oh, I mean, the film The Dark Crystal. The film.
REN: Oh!
BECCA: Not the object. You know what, Ren? Let’s buzz in again because I meant the film. The film. You’re right. There’s only one part of that.
[All laugh]
KATILYN: That is also how I understood it.
REN: Yeah.
BECCA: I’m sorry.
REN: It’s in a big part and a little part and that’s the whole movie. [laughs]
BECCA: So listen, what you guys don’t understand is it’s in italics in my notes. So I don’t know why you couldn’t hear that. Let’s buzz in again.
KATILYN: [laughs] You should tell your your speech coach that you need to learn to speak in italics.
BECCA: Some part of this movie is represented by scotch bonnet peppers, mango and pineapple.
[Clock ticking sound]
REN: Feel like my first guess was the only good guess.
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: The three suns?
BECCA: It is the three suns. That’s right. Each of those yellow foods is a different sun.
KATILYN: [laughs] Feel like the triangle is right. Pineapple, mango and scotch bonnet.
BECCA: Yeah. Exactly. Question three. The Essence of Gelfling hot sauce reveals that the Skeksis were drinking a habanero hot sauce with what kind of fruit as the primary ingredient? So if you were going to make a hot sauce called Essence of Gelfling, you’d obviously use habanero, but what fruit would you throw in?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Ren.
REN: Let’s say peach.
BECCA: Not peach. Good guess.
REN: I don’t know.
BECCA: Katilyn, guess a fruit?
KATILYN: Lime.
BECCA: It’s not lime. This is a cherry-based hot sauce.
KATILYN: Cherry. Very Gelfling.
REN: I mean they already used pineapple and mango so that’s what I was…I had ruled those out.
BECCA: Question four. Feel the power of the Dark Crystal with this hot sauce named Feel the Power of the Dark Crystal. It seems to be basically identical to the Essence of Gelfling, except it uses this fruit instead of cherries. What fruit’s the primary ingredient here?
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
REN: I’m gonna say peach again. I buzzed in to say peach again.
BECCA: It’s not peach.
[Ren and Katilyn laugh]
KATILYN: One of these times it’s gonna be peach.
REN: Putting in all my chips. All the chips on peach.
BECCA: Katilyn, would you care to steal? Name a fruit?
KATILYN: (laughing) We’ll go with lime again.
BECCA: (laughing) It’s not lime. It’s blueberries.
REN: [laughs] Sure! Why not?
BECCA: (in normal voice) And the last question in this little round because there’s only five hot sauces, so I really couldn’t stretch this one. Question five. Speaking of the three suns, the hottest of all The Dark Crystal hot sauces is called The Great Conjunction. Thanks in part to this kind of pepper, it reaches a 9 out of 10 on the listed heat index. Name the pepper.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Buzz in ding]
BECCA: Katilyn.
KATILYN: (in normal voice) Is that the Carolina Reaper?
BECCA: It is the Carolina Reaper. Correct. [laughs]
REN: Notoriously, the hottest pepper I think they have yet engineered.
KATILYN: You know, they’re always coming up with new ones. They’re just like, we’ve been in the lab for the last five years making something that will kill your tongue.
BECCA: SkekTek the Scientist is at it.
[Ren and Katilyn laugh]
BECCA: I do want to also say, other ingredients in here include habaneros, which is just basically in all of them. I think as just a base. Blackberries are the fruit of choice for The Great Conjunction.
KATILYN: Not peaches.
REN: Or limes.
BECCA: No, neither. I also do feel like I need to stress here that there is activated charcoal in this one. So I do want to warn our audience, if you are taking something like antidepressants or something like that, you should not eat The Great Conjuction.
REN: Birth control. Yeah.
BECCA: Yeah, birth control as well. Yeah, a lot of diseases. Activated charcoal will absorb the drugs out of your body. So be careful with The Great Conjunction hot sauce and not just because it reaches a 9 out of 10 on the listed heat index.
KATILYN: Podcast with a disclaimer.
BECCA: Listen, I need to warn people.
REN: It doesn’t affect the taste at all, I would assume. It’s just to turn it black.
BECCA: No, I think they want it to look black.
REN: Yeah, to be goth.
BECCA: Well, it’s dark during The Great Conjunction.
REN: Right.
BECCA: And that’s why there are blackberries. Even though blackberries are not black once you crush them. I was doing a mortar and pestle. That’s what that was.
[Katilyn and Ren laugh]
BECCA: But anyway, Jade City Foods, I’m still interested. Please hit me up. You’ve got Labyrinth hot sauces too. I’ll do a round about Labyrinth hot sauces. It’s fine. I got this. I’m very excited to eat all of these foods.
But now we’re going to move on to our classic stump-the-host game (in echo sounding voice) The Anything in the World Prize Game. (in normal voice) As you know, in this round, you two will be able to ask me anything in the world about the universe of The Dark Crystal. If you stump me, you’ll earn 20 points.
So, let’s start with Ren. Would you like to ask me a question about The Dark Crystal?
REN: Yes. And I have it typed out in Discord. So let me just pull that up. Okay. So in the graphic novel series The Dark Crystal Creation Myths, it introduces a character who is Aughra’s adopted son who is a trickster from a world beyond Thra. What is this character’s name?
BECCA: This character’s name is, of course, Bobert from Aliens in the Family. He’s…Bobut, excuse me. Sorry, Ryan. It’s Bobut. I know. But I can only think of one trickster from another world and that’s Bobut.
REN: Incorrect.
[Katilyn laughs]
REN: Can I tell you what it is?
BECCA: Yes, of course.
REN: Okay, it is Raunip (pronounced like the vowel sound in raw) or Raunip (pronounced like the vowel sound in round).
BECCA: Sure. I didn’t read that one. But Ren, you’ve earned yourself 20 points. Katilyn, do you have a question about The Dark Crystal?
KATILYN: I do. I have a couple but trying to think of which one would be more fun to say on the podcast. Let’s bring in the Star Wars listeners and get this listenership up here.
REN: Crossover event.
KATILYN: Exactly. You gotta market this stuff.
BECCA: [laughs] Always be plugging.
KATILYN: (laughing) Always be plugging. (in normal voice) So there was a lot of crossover between The Dark Crystal and Star Wars during this time because they were filming basically simultaneously. And a tiny piece of Star Wars merchandise was repurposed as an accessory for one of the Skeksis. What was the piece of merch and what was it on this Skeksis?
BECCA: Oh, I don’t know. I’m gonna guess the Ornamentalist is wearing a TIE fighter on her/it/his/their necklace.
KATILYN: You know what? That is pretty close.
BECCA: Okay.
KATILYN: Because it is the TIE fighter. It’s a miniature TIE fighter.
BECCA: Well that is the coolest design of all of the early Star Trek... Star Trek. Star Wars.
[all laugh]
KATILYN: You just blew it.
BECCA: I know. Now we lost everyone!
REN: Bye. That’s the show, folks.
KATILYN: So yeah, it’s a miniature TIE fighter with Darth Vader inside.
BECCA: Huh.
KATILYN: And it was repurposed as SkekTek the Scientist’s eyepiece.
BECCA: I gotta look for that now. That’s really interesting.
REN: I also didn’t know that.
BECCA: You’re going to get 20 points as well though.
KATILYN: Woohoo.
BECCA: Well, we’re gonna move on to our last stand, which is going to be a little different than usual. We’re going to do something a little, a little different. Because for our final game (in echo sounding voice) Say the Word. (in normal voice) I thought it would be good if we could maybe bring in some outside help here. But before we get into some outside help…No, that was a coincidence that my fiance walked by.
[Katilyn and Ren laugh]
FAINT VOICE
FROM BACKGROUND: Sorry!
BECCA: It’s okay.
But before we bring in outside help, let’s check the scores. So our game is still pretty close, but maybe a little less close than before.
[Ren laughs]
KATILYN: It’s been fun.
REN: It is. This has been very fun.
BECCA: So right now Katilyn has a score of 77. And Ren, you have a score of 57, so honestly still pretty close. And, In our final round (in echo sounding voice) Say the Word (in normal voice) you can wager any amount of points. The winner gets those points. The loser loses them. You will get to hear the question before you wager.
Now, those of you who have been on ToughPigs or the so-called Muppets Twitter know that there’s one person who knows more about The Dark Crystal than anyone. And I am, of course, speaking of our good friend Cypress aka moomin. You might, of course, remember for when I was doing ToughPigs pride month, this June, I called in Cypress to write a lovely article about his queer readings of The Dark Crystal. And I was like, “You know, I want to have Katilyn and Ren on, but it just wouldn’t feel like a ToughPigs Dark Crystal moment if I didn’t bring in our good friend Cypress aka moomin.”
So I did. I asked Cypress to write the hardest Dark Crystal question that he could think of. And I’m gonna Well, I think I can actually play the clip.
[Clip of Cypress reading question plays]
CYPRESS: Hi, I’m Cypress. My pronouns are he/him. And Becca’s asked me to give y’all a really hard Dark Crystal question. So what are the names of the three suns and moons of Thra?
[Clip ends]
BECCA: So, what I will say is, whoever gets more of these correct will earn whatever points they bet. So as you know, in this round, you can bet any number of points. As long as you have them. And again, Katilyn, you have 77 points. Ren, you have 57 points. Your job is to list as many of the names of suns and moons as you can. Whoever gets more of them right will earn their points back.
[Clock ticking sound]
[Clock ticking stops]
BECCA: Okay. Well, we’ve got some answers.
[Ren laughs]
BECCA: So each of you guessed different names for the suns and moons. And some of you guessed right.
[Katilyn and Ren laugh]
BECCA: On some of them at least. But many of them did not. And by many of you, I mean, one of you really did not.
[Katilyn laughs]
BECCA: So let’s start with Ren. Ren, you bet zero points.
REN: And the reason that I bet that is because I do not know the answer and I included this in my message to you, but I have to say aloud, (imitating Don Music) I’m sorry, moomin. I’ll never get it. Never!
BECCA: Okay, what are your guesses?
REN: (in normal voice) My guesses are the suns I called do, re and mi. And the moons I called Vulcan, Klingon and Romulus.
BECCA: And all of those are right. No.
[Katilyn laughs]
REN: [laughs] Those are some other things.
BECCA: Those are. You named things. You were thinking of Star Wars. I mean Star Trek.
[Ren and Katilyn laugh]
BECCA: That time I did it on purpose.
REN: We’re joking, nerds.
KATILYN: If you can’t be right, be funny.
REN: Yup.
BECCA: Yeah, well that time I did it on purpose. But Katilyn, not to spoil things but you got some of these right.
KATILYN: Yay.
BECCA: So Katilyn, what did you guess?
KATILYN: So for the suns, I put Rose Sun, Dying Sun and Great Sun. And the moons I put the Heart Moon, the Harvest Moon and the Cheesy Moon.
BECCA: Well actually, the only one of those that’s right is the cheesy moon.
[Ren and Katilyn laugh]
BECCA: No. So the three suns, which Cypress stresses to us, are of course also known as the three brothers, are called the Rose Sun, the Dying Sun and the Greater Sun. Not the Great Sun. But you still got two of those.
KATILYN: Woo.
BECCA: So that’s still more than Ren.
[Katilyn laughs]
REN: Yup.
BECCA: And the three moons, also called the three sisters, are the Blue Moon, the Pearl Moon, and the Hidden Moon, So, no, I’m sorry. But by the rules of the game that I set up, you have earned 20 points. Giving you 97 points to Ren’s 57 points.
[applause]
BECCA: But wait.
KATILYN: Oh no.
REN: Oh no.
BECCA: Before I asked moomin for a question, I had a question. And I don’t want to be upstaged fully here. So, I’m gonna ask my question as well. So guess what? For the first time we are doing a second (in echo sounding voice) Say the Word.
(in normal voice) As we know, Jim Henson and his team worked hard on The Dark Crystal. However, during Jim’s lifetime, there was no real attempt to extend the series beyond the single film. In fact, while clips from The Dark Crystal appeared in some specials, almost all of the puppets themselves were never reused or never referenced in other projects. However, in one project from Jim’s lifetime, a major character has a name, that is a sly reference to The Dark Crystal.
What major character from a post-Dark Crystal, pre-Jim Henson’s death project has a name that is a Dark Crystal joke. So place your bets. Katilyn, you’ve now got 97 points and Ren, you’ve got 57 points. There aren’t too many projects from between the Dark Crystal and Jim Henson’s death and it’s one of the main characters who has a name that is secretly a Dark Crystal joke.
[Clock ticking sound]
KATILYN: Why is your question harder than the hardest question moomin could come up with?
BECCA: [laughs] I will say, I shared my question with moomin and moomin did not know the answer to this one.
[Clock ticking stops]
BECCA: Well, [laughs] how the world turns. How the world turns. Because now Katilyn has bet zero points. Katilyn, what have you guessed?
KATILYN: I guessed the dog from Storyteller, whose name I do not know.
BECCA: Well, I’ll give you a hint. The dog from Storyteller is named The Dog.
KATILYN: Okay good.
BECCA: Which is not a Dark Crystal reference, but you bet zero points. Ren, you bet the farm.
REN: All in. All in, baby.
BECCA: You bet 57 points. Ren, which character from a post-Dark Crystal project has a name that’s a Dark Crystal joke?
REN: Doc Crystal. Doc, the main human character of Fraggle Rock. His last name is Crystal.
BECCA: That is correct. Doc, from Fraggle, Rock has the last name Crystal making his name Doc Crystal.
KATILYN: How did I not know that? Wow.
BECCA: It is only mentioned in the final episode of Fraggle Rock.
KATILYN: Ugh, and I haven’t… Oh, wow.
BECCA: Have you not seen the final episode?
KATILYN: Not for a while.
BECCA: Okay.
KATILYN: I keep restarting my rewatches and get to like season three.
BECCA: Same, same. I made it halfway through season two on my last one. I think at this point I’m just going to wait for Fraggle Talk to get there and I’ll just watch along with them once they get… Because last year I watched season one and half of season two. But yeah, in the last episode, they needed a full…He reads an official letter. So they needed it to have an official name and it’s addressed to, he reads aloud, like Dear Mr. Crystal. And Jerry Juhl chose to name him Doc Crystal. Because he thought it would be funny.
KATILYN: [laughs] That is hilarious. And I, wow, and it must not have like, the last time I saw it, it must not have clicked.
BECCA: I don’t know if they ever, again, if they ever say “Doc Crystal.” I think they just say Mr. Crystal.
KATILYN: Mr. Crystal.
BECCA: And you leave it. They leave it up to you to put that together. But yes, Doc’s name is Mr. Crystal. Well, listen. And I will say, I certainly owe you big for all the work that you do anyway. So I will be sending you a gift as well, Katilyn.
KATILYN: Listen, I was expecting to lose hard.
BECCA: (laughing) You technically won. It’s only because I asked a second question.
KATILYN: [laughs] But it was an amazing question.
BECCA: (in normal voice) Ren, you were right. Again, in a massive upset caused by me changing the rules of the game, our winner is Ren.
REN: Wooooo!
BECCA: Ren, you are our winner, and today’s Toughest Pig. Ren, you win your choice of a stone that you could have a trial over.
[Ren laughs]
BECCA: Or a little art card I did of the Chamberlain. Or I should say I’m in the process of doing, because it’s not done yet. But I have the line art done. It’ll be done tonight.
REN: Well, you know, I’m a pacifist and I don’t really want to challenge anyone to trial by stone. So I will take the art.
BECCA: All right. I will send that your way. And Katilyn, you technically won. You would have won if I didn’t decide…
REN: Yeah, this feels dirty a little bit.
BECCA: Well, listen…
KATILYN: No, that was amazing. Plus, you got to keep everybody listening till the very end. It’s got to be nailbiting.
BECCA: It’s true. It’s true.
REN: Right.
BECCA: See, see, I promised Danny Horn that this would not be the opposite of entertainment.
REN: Ah.
BECCA: And look at that. I delivered a twist and ending.
REN: Come from behind, the underdog story.
BECCA: Mmhmm.
KATILYN: I’ll just go Thelma and Louise myself right off a cliff.
[Becca and Ren laugh]
KATILYN: Because I did read that article just in case.
BECCA: I should have just asked about Thelma and Louise the whole time. [laughs]
[Katilyn and Ren laugh]
KATILYN: It is the remake of The Dark Crystal, as everybody knows.
BECCA: It’s true.
REN: There could be an April Fool’s Day episode of Hubba-Wha that’s either all Farscape questions or all Star Trek questions or all Thelma and Louise questions.
BECCA: But Katilyn, what I was saying is, you’ve done such great work for us, writing all of these transcripts for my show and for everybody else’s shows. And also just writing for Toughpigs in general. So I’m definitely going to send you something as well.
KATILYN: Aww, thank you.
REN: Well deserved. Well deserved.
BECCA: Again, certainly well deserved. And I don’t want anyone to think that I’m a dirty rotten Skeksis for stealing the victory away from you. So, speaking of that though, guests, where can people find you if you wish to be found?
Let’s start with Ren.
REN: Sure. I am one of those people who never left Tumblr. I made a tumblr in 2011. And I’m still on there talking a lot about Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and beloved 70s broadcast sitcom M*A*S*H. So you can find me there @ragdoll like a Raggedy Ann, hyphen ren; R-E-N.
I’m on Twitter and Bluesky under those same handles just without the hyphen.
BECCA: And what was the rock I had to teach you about on Tumblr the other day?
REN: Ah, bismuth. You had to tell me that bismuth isn’t naturally shiny, but that bismuth is a thing that exists in nature.
BECCA: It’s true. It’s true. Those crystals are man-made. Those weird square crystals.
REN: I had to learn about the dark crystals.
[Becca laughs]
REN: Bismuth naturally is very dark, but there’s things that humans can do to make them not dark.
KATILYN: So Tumblr is a rock tumbler, right?
BECCA: Oh, that’s true because it made this dark crystal into something shiny.
KATILYN: That explains its attraction.
REN: That’s definitely what Tumblr is.
[Katilyn laughs]
BECCA: Yeah, no.
REN: A lot of people do like rocks on Tumblr. There is rock Tumblr, I’m sure.
BECCA: I’m back on Tumblr and spending a lot less time on the other social media right now because, um yeah. Anyway, Katilyn, where can people find you, if you wish to be found.
KATILYN: People can find me writing for ToughPigs. Most of my work is the transcripts for the many, many podcasts. And I’m trying to keep up. Like I said, many lovely podcasts and then every once in a while I get to write an article or review and that’s nice.
But if you’d like to follow me and keep tabs of that fantasy writer journey that I am on, I am on both Bluesky and Mastodon, which is a very chill place, if you like chill vibes, under KTLyn and that’s the letters K and T and then L-Y-N. And I think on Mastodon I’ve got author tagged to the end of the KTLyn. So you can find me in those places and follow me. And I’m just retweeting ToughPigs stuff all the time and posting pictures of flowers and moss and my dogs. [laughs] So if that sounds awesome, follow me. Always be plugging.
BECCA: It’s true. It’s true. Well listen, you can also find me online and the best place is ToughPigs. Because as I always say, ToughPigs has been around for over 20 years, which makes it actually the only website that I guarantee will not explode by the end of this year.
I am on Twitter @Unclepetunio but not as much as I used to be, which is a weird thing to say, but true. I’m on all other social media platforms @tallgirlpetunia. So, Twitter is unclepetunio with an O and everything else is tallgirlpetunia with an A, because sometimes you transition in the middle of creating your social media profiles.
KATILYN: No easy uncle joke there like in all the other episodes.
BECCA: There wasn’t an easy one, and we’ve been going for a while anyway. Not as long as Betty Lou, but for a while.
[Katilyn and Ren laugh]
BECCA: But so you can find me on ToughPigs. And you can find ToughPigs at toughpigs.com, or ToughPigs on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. I did restart the ToughPigs Tumblr. Although I’ve been forgetting to post lately because I’ve been under a lot of stress but it’ll be back. It’s started. I’m posting.
And hey, if you like ToughPigs, you can consider donating to the ToughPigs patreon where you could get even more free stuff.
And of course, if you really like supporting ToughPigs, you can also head to our Teepublic page and buy shirts. Oh, look at that. Katilyn is sporting my “whatever” shirt which I designed inspired…
REN: Oh, no this is a different shirt.
BECCA: Which I designed inspired by Ren’s article. So honestly, wow, look at that, we’re all together.
REN: Brand synergy. That’s what’s happening.
KATILYN: It’s The Great Conjunction.
[Ren gasps]
BECCA: Three suns? Three suns. Three weird gender people. It’s the same. But yeah, plenty of shirts, the “whatever” shirt that I designed. A shirt inspired by The Monster at the End of This Book. Recently added a shirt I designed based on a Lips’s shirt from Muppets Mayhem and also some shirts that I didn’t design, including some great Muppet Movie shirts that I want really badly, but haven’t ordered yet.
So I’d like to thank some other people for helping out. Of course, both of our guests. Thank you so much. I do want to thank me for writing, editing, producing and hosting this show. Thank you, me. Thanks to Staci Rosen for writing the theme music to this show. Thanks to Richard Gomez for doing our host artwork. Thanks to Katilyn Miller for writing.
KATILYN: Double thanks!
BECCA: Yeah. For writing the transcripts of these episodes, you’re going to have to sit down and relive this bit by bit.
REN: You’ll know everything that got cut. You’ll, you know, behind the curtain.
KATILYN: And here I say this.
BECCA: Yeah. No. So if you’d like to swear now, so I can cut that and you’ll know. Thanks to Joe Hennes, the Toughpigs Muppet Fan Podcast executive producer. And thanks to the Mystics for teaching me to read the words that stay on Muppet Wiki.
And lastly, thanks to all of you at home for being with us on (in echo sounding voice) Hubba-Wha?! (in normal voice) the Muppet quiz show. And as always…
[clears throat] (imitating the Chamberlain Skeksis) Mmmmm, yes, mmmmmm.
[Ren and Katilyn laugh]
BECCA: [coughs] I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Voice training. All right, good night, everybody.
[Hubba-Wha outro music plays]
[Clip from The Dark Crystal plays]
GARTHIM
MASTER: I challenge!
CHAMBERLAIN: Mmm, Trial by stone.
GARTHIM
MASTER: Trial by stone!
[background chatter]
SLAVE
MASTER: Trial by stone. Slaves, raise the stone.
[background chatter]
[Clip ends]
