Transcript: Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – “Hope and Socks”

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Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – Episode 26: Hope and Socks

[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]

JOE HENNES: Hello and welcome to Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock. The unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast brought to you by ToughPigs.com. This is the podcast where we cover Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock episode by episode, along with the talented producers, performers, writers, and builders who helped put it all together. I’m your host, Silly Creature Joe Hennes.

Today, we are talking about the final episode of Season 2, “Hope and Socks,” in which we find a satisfying ending, a new beginning, and answers to all of our sock-related questions.

Joining us for this, finale talk, are two guests who truly brought Back to the Rock back to life. First is the executive producer of the series and the Jim Henson Company’s President of Television. It’s Halle Stanford. Hello, Halle!

HALLE STANFORD: Hello! I feel like I’m on a game show, like I should be running in. Like, yaaaaay!

JOE: Yeah, come on down. [laughs] Our second guest is the executive producer, writer, director, puppeteer, Fraggle, Doozer, and sheepdog. It’s John Tartaglia. Hey, Johnny!

JOHN TARTAGLIA: I can honestly say I’ve never been called a sheepdog before, and I’m like, “All right, it’s true.”

JOE: You are.

JOHN: That’s what Sprocket is. I’m gonna embrace it.

JOE: That’s right, yeah. We all have a little sheepdog inside of us.

JOHN: Hello. We all have a little Sprocket inside of us. Yes.

JOE: That’s right. Thank you both so much for joining, and I’m so happy to have you here, but I’m so sad that this is the final episode of the season.

JOHN: Aw, I know.

JOE: But it’s been such a trip to get to revisit Back to the Rock season 2 through this podcast series. I hope everyone’s really enjoyed all these conversations that we’ve had, and I’m just kind of, I mean, I’m happy that the two of you are here to kind of say farewell to this season of the podcast as well.

JOHN: Yes.

HALLE: Big group hug.

JOHN: That’s right.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: A very Fraggly for now. See you soon.

JOE: Yes. So first, I hate to bring up something that might be a little, a bit of a sad memory potentially, but can you tell me about what your last day on set was for season two?

JOHN: It was shooting this episode. And I’m trying to remember. My goodness. I barely remember like what the actual last shot was, but the distinct memory I have is that the scene where everyone’s celebrating at the end, when all the Fraggles are celebrating in the garden, and we do that nice little Fraggle group hug at the end, I think that was the last day.

And you know, it was nice because the whole company was there, and we were such a close-knit group, in every way, the cast and the crew and the creative team. Everybody. So it was a nice way to kind of, because of the message of the episode and the hope for the future and hope for new beginnings. It felt very much like that.

And there were a lot of tears and a lot of I’m going to miss you. I’m going to miss you. And then we had a wrap party the next day, and so we were excited about that. So we knew we’d see each each other again before we all went our separate ways, but it was a…it was that kind of melancholy mix of like, lots of laughter, also lots of tears.

HALLE: Yeah. I wasn’t there for the wrap party. I had to go back early and miss it. Although my husband was there, who’s the set decorator. So I heard all about it and the crazy. But, you know, for me, I was trying to capture each moment. So I actually did video everybody and asked them, you know, give me three words that describe what Fraggle Rock means to you.

And honestly, you’d be moved to tears because it was everyone from first ADs, to crafty, to our DP, just saying what they felt. And it was all very loving, emotional, awe-inspiring. What a wonderful, wonderful group of people. We were all very, very proud of what we’d done.

I wouldn’t say, I wasn’t there for the wrap party, so I don’t know if there were tears, but I would say it’s just an immense amount of pride and joy. And love. That’s what I remember, the last feelings of being on set in Calgary.

And then I would give, I gave one last look and one last pass by all the beautiful sets. I’m like, I’m going to walk in the Gorg’s garden.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: I’m going to sit in the great hall. I’m going to take it all in before it’s all taken down.

JOHN: Yeah, actually on that note, one of my favorite photos I have is, I think I posted it on Instagram. Jordan Lockhart took it of me sitting on like a ladder in the great hall, and it was like the day before we knew they were going to take it down. And I think that was actually our last shooting day if I recall correctly. I remember that was just such a– I had the same feeling, Halle.  I just want to be in the set one more time. Just in case. You never know if we’re going to do more or not. And I was like, I just want to feel it and take it in one more time.

And yeah. Very special moment.

JOE: That’s great. What did you do with the video of all these folks giving their three words about Fraggle Rock?

HALLE: Oh, would you like to see them?

JOE: Oh, yeah.

HALLE: I posted them on social media, on my stories.

JOE: Oh.

HALLE: That day it was done, but happy to share.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: You should repost it.

JOE: That’s a reason to follow Halle on social media everybody.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: You might be missing out on these things.

HALLE: @halle_stanford_ that is me, on Instagram.

JOHN: ToughPigs exclusive.

[Joe laughs]

HALLE: Yeah. I will. I’m happy to post it. It was so loving. So wonderful.

JOE: Oh, I’m sure. Yeah. You guys have had some really great celebrities on this past season. Like Catherine O’Hara, Brett Goldstein, and you got Daveed Diggs back. Wonderful list. Do you have a celebrity wish list for a potential season 3?

JOHN: We always have people that we look at. First of all, that’s the magic of Fraggle Rock. Right? We constantly hear from celebrities how Fraggle Rock was their favorite kid show. Especially musical people. They’re oftentimes like, “This is the show that made me want to be a musician. And this is the show I felt most attracted to because of the music, not knowing I was going to be a musician.”

But we’ll sit in meetings and kind of joke about like, “Oh my gosh, that person would be such a great Fraggle.” Or, “That person has fraggle energy.” Or something like that. So I think we have kind of like an unofficial, back pocket list that we always kind of, you know, think about and refer to.

And then there’s people like Brett Goldstein, who is so obsessed with puppets and so obsessed with the Fraggles and wants to be a puppeteer and wasn’t just excited to be on the show because he just wanted to be on the show, but he was obsessed with the look of the puppets and how they’re made. I mean, he literally held Mokey when we brought Mokey out because Mokey was his favorite, I guess, as a kid. She was like, I don’t know, like the missing treasure. It was amazing. It was amazing to see that.

So yeah, we have a lot of wish list celebrities, I think.

HALLE: I think a lot about rock stars that we want on.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: I want to see Pink with Red. I honestly do. I think that would be hilarious and I’m a big fan. So I don’t know. I kind of go to the musical place, Johnny.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: In my head.

JOHN: Oh no, you’re totally right. Yeah.

HALLE: But come on, admit it. You want Celine Dion. Just say it.

JOHN: Oh, she and Dolly Parton. I’m putting it out there right now, just in case Celine Dion and Dolly Parton listen to the podcast. They literally have a free…We will make seasons 13, 14, 15, 16 if they want to do it. Like that’s how much I want them on the show.

[Halle laughs]

JOE: But I will say, to Halle’s point, we were so happy. And I guess this ties into this episode, we were so happy with how people reacted to the Aespa video with Uncle Traveling Matt. And, you know, we kind of like lightly hit that in the first season with the Foo Fighters, who were amazing. And then with Aespa, it was like their fans became Fraggle fans. Fraggle fans became Aespa fans and the video went viral. It was crazy. And I think there’s such a beautiful blend of, like Halle was saying, rock stars and Fraggles. It just kind of goes together.

HALLE: Maybe sports stars too. See, now we’re brainstorming and you’re watching.

JOHN: Ooooh.

HALLE: Like, we could get [Lionel] Messi on like, let’s get some international athletes. That would be so fun.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Get Messi on to play a little bit of rock hockey.

JOHN: Yeah, that’s right.

JOE: It’s right there. Yeah.

HALLE: Yes.

JOE: Writes itself.

HALLE: Speaking of hockey, I do want to, I want to tell you how awesome Brett Goldstein is that we had a, you may not know this, but we had a Fraggle Rock hockey team. We were called the Doozers. And when we had to go play against Fargo, the production of Fargo, Brett Goldstein, I asked him if he’d do this and he did. He made a video as Roy Kent.

JOE: Great.

HALLE: Coaching them, to go and kick some ass.

JOHN: It was amazing. It was epic.

JOE: Oh, I love that.

JOHN: It was really epic.

HALLE: He’s a great guy. What a guy.

JOE: So obviously there’s so much more to Fraggle Rock than just the Back to the Rock series. And we know that you guys are working on a lot of other stuff. Can you talk at all about what you’re working on that’s connected to the Fraggle Rock franchise?

JOHN: Sure. Well, I mean, the biggest thing that I’m most excited about and I don’t know when this will air, but it’ll probably be in the location of when this will happen is we’re launching for the very first time ever, Fraggle Rock Live, which is going to be a live version of the show. It’s never been done in 40-something years of the characters existing and the show existing.

HALLE: John, explain what that means. A live theater production.

JOHN: Oh, yeah. It’s a live theater. So it’s basically, if you’ve ever seen Sesame Street Live or you’ve seen The Muppets Show Live at Disney World or anything like that. It’s basically walk-around versions of the Fraggles and then everything gets scaled up because of that. Right? So you have hand puppet-sized Doozers, walk-around Fraggles, giant Gorgs. Brand new creatures that we’re creating just for the show and it’s really, you know, it’s a full musical. It’s two acts. It’s an original story.

The Creature Shop built everything and so it’s, of course, beautiful and looks exactly like the characters and it’s really thrilling because when I was a kid, as such a Fraggle fan, I would dream of going to see the Fraggles live and meeting them in person. So now the Fraggles get to go to kids’ hometowns, and families in there and the kids can meet the characters and there’s a VIP meet and greet where you can meet the characters afterwards. Get your photo with them and it’s going to be really, really special.

And the amount of love that everyone’s put into making this happen is just kind of unlike anything. Well, actually it’s very much in the spirit of the series. It’s everyone working at their highest level because they want the show to be as great as possible.

So that’s really exciting. Forty-nine cities, launching in January. You can go to Fragglerocklive.com to find out all about it.

JOE: Wow. That’s soon. It’s like really soon.

JOHN: It’s very soon. It’s very soon.

JOE: Wow.

HALLE: Wait, I have to brag about Johnny on it because he’ll never brag about himself. Johnny wrote it and directed it and like this is his dream like this is all things John Tartaglia coming to be. Like Broadway and theater and Fraggles.

When I walked on the stage and he was auditioning the performers for it, it was like chorus line. It was like, “Dada da da da da da da da da da bum bum.” And he’s like, dancing with them. It was amazing. It’s going to be so good.

JOHN: Yeah, we have the greatest cast. And you know, and it’s been fun for all of the voices of the Fraggles, too, because it’s like, to get to see these characters live beyond just the puppets on our arms.

So that’s happening. Then we’re working on some new merchandise. There’s always some bunch of great new merchandise coming out. I can’t tell you too many details, but some really fun stuff. Some publishing things. There’s actually lots of wonderful Fraggle projects coming down the line and Fraggle things.

So there’s that great line from Red in season one where she’s like, “What a great time to be a Fraggle or what a time to be a Fraggle.” So I keep thinking that in my head. I’m proud of the stuff that we’re able to do with the characters and with the franchise.

JOE: Yeah, we’ve always said in those times between, you know, basically through the 90s and the early 2000s up until Back to the Rock appeared, that like the way to keep Fraggle Rock in the public eye, or one of the ways to keep it in the public eye, is just to have merchandise on the shelves. Like have the thing that the person can hold in their hands so that when Fraggle Rock does another production, you’re not trying to say, “Okay, let me tell you who the Fraggles are. Let me reintroduce you to a new audience”

JOHN: Right.

JOE: Because they’ve always been here. And so I’m really glad to hear that there’s going to be more stuff. There’s going to be… Like the tour sounds amazing. We’re going to have to talk more about the tour when it gets a little closer.

JOHN: And there’s going to be original merchandise at the tour, by the way. So if you’re a Fraggle, you want to get this stuff. It’s super cool.

But to your point, it’s really funny. I think that that’s been our big mission. And Halle and I are both passionate about this, is that like, you know, because of the way Fraggle Rock aired in the 80s, you know, behind a paywall on HBO and just kind of, you know, being this, most people did not have HBO in the 80s, as much as everyone talks about it. Like very few people had it. And so it was always the show that if you knew about, you were like in this cool, cool club. And if you didn’t know it, you might know the theme song, but it seemed like this distant thing. So there are a lot of people who did not grow up with it.

And so I think that was our goal. This time around, let’s make sure that we really, for lack of a better way of saying it, we really surface them and we really get the characters out there and expand the canon a little bit that the Fraggles can come up to our world when they want to. And so that we can really make people aware of it because the franchise will only survive if people want them to be there. 

So you really need people to invest in that and care about the characters. And I think you’re right, merchandise having that, I mean, those great Little Tikes dolls that we came out with. Have you seen the Little Tikes Sprocket, the big Sprocket?

JOE: Yes. Oh my god, it looks so good.

JOHN: It’s gorgeous. Right? Yeah, and they really worked hard. All the people at Little Tikes worked so hard to make them as on-model as possible. So, you know, it’s pretty crazy in our world today that we have that out there on shelves. It makes me really, really happy.

JOE: Me too. Me too. I’m so happy to have new Fraggle stuff. And I am getting it because I mean, I have to. [laughs]

JOHN: Yay!

HALLE: Yay!

JOE: That’s the rule.

JOHN: That’s right. 

JOE: If there’s new Fraggle stuff. Then people like us, we have to just get it. And that’s it.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: So let’s talk about this episode. I really want to dive into this finale with both of you. It opens where we left off last week in the Gorgs’ garden and there’s no wind to get that turbine moving. And we have this great overhead shot of Red standing on the Gorgs’ table and she’s like looking up at the windmill. I love…We talked last week about there was several really great over-the-head shots of the Fraggles in the previous episode.

I’m glad to see like it wasn’t just like, “Oh, we did a little schtick for episode 12.” Like 13. Here we are again. And you know, she’s still, we still get to see her little feet from above.

JOHN: Yeah, that was really J.J. Johnson.

HALLE: Oh yeah.

JOHN: He’s so brilliant and he loves pushing the boundaries of what puppets can do and what visuals can do. And I remember when he was pitching that to us, we were like, okay, like this is going to be hard, but we can do it. And I was so glad we did, because it looks beautiful. Looks so beautiful.

HALLE: Every director brought something different, but J.J. definitely was the one that always tried to push the visual, you know, to play with it in that way. And so I thought the same thing, Johnny, like, oh, a J.J. specialty.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Well, and the next shot. I mean, we’re talking about a beautiful shot, immediately afterward, Red is looking at the sunrise. We see the sun come over her face. And she’s looking out at, I guess, Gorg farmland and hills.

JOHN: Yeah. We had so many conversations about that because I was like, this is breaking a fourth wall that has never been broken.

JOE: Yeah. Yeah.

JOHN: And I know everything that’s out there, myself included as a kid. And I was like, what’s beyond that garden? What does it look like? So if you actually look really, really closely, if you pause it, you’ll see there’s lots of little details in that background and our visual effects department spent so long and so many drafts back and forth to make sure that it was in the world and it was right. And, you know, it was. I remember when we shot that, even Karen Prell was like, she’s like, “This is going to be groundbreaking in the world of Fraggle Rock that we’re seeing beyond.” I was like, “I know!”

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: It’s so exciting to see what’s beyond there.

JOE: Yeah. Well, and it’s confirmation that, you know, the Gorgs’ garden isn’t just like behind Doc’s workshop. It’s not just like walled off and we just happen to never run into the Gorgs. Like there is a whole world out there.

JOHN: That’s right. Yeah.

JOE: And I don’t know. I mean, these are the kinds of teases that you all are giving us of, you know, if we get a season three, are we going to see more of that? Are we going to have more characters who are coming out from the world into the Gorgs garden?

JOHN: You might.

JOE: The potential out there. I can’t get over the potential.

HALLE: We like the world building. We like sort of creating the possibilities and letting the viewers fill it in in their imaginations too.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: That’s the lore, right? That’s like every great franchise whether it’s Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance or it’s, you know, Lord of the Rings or like, you know, where there’s this, you’re not just creating a set of characters or location you’re creating this whole world. And I’ve always loved that about Fraggle Rock that it’s like, what are those little weird bugs in the corner? Like what are they called? And you never find out but they’re just, they’re there. And that means that that species exists and that they are alive and they have a purpose.

And I think that’s the magic of this world is that you just never, to your point, maybe there are more things out there. Maybe. Who knows? Maybe there are more gorgs out there. We don’t know. We think they’re the last of their kind. Are they? We don’t know.

JOE: Yeah. And it’s I mean, really you’re feeding people like me who are, we’re the ones who are going like, “there’s a bug there. I’ve never seen that bug before.” I literally have notes about this episode about bugs.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: I’ve never seen that bug on Fraggle Rock. What does that mean?

JOHN: It’s possible.

HALLE: Well, we also had a lot of conversations about… I know you’re going to get to the question about gorg babies too. So a lot of children.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: Spoiler alert!

JOE: Oh my god. We need another hour to talk about gorg babies. Yeah, we will get there soon. So in this scene. Again, like beautiful shot. It’s so brief. And I know you put it in the trailers too. And I was grateful for that because this is one of the most beautiful shots in the season. Of Red looking out on the farmlands and the sun is rising and the colors are just popping. Beautiful shot. And Red has this epiphany. And she runs back to Fraggle Rock where everyone is fast asleep.

And here we see Cotterpin and the Architect sleeping in their little Doozer car. And I love that the Architect is using a toolbox as a pillow which does not look comfortable. And he’s holding a tiny little Doozer doll. That thing must be…How small is that?

JOHN: It was literally like maybe an inch. I couldn’t believe that they created that so small. It was amazing. That was our amazing team in Calgary that made that. They’re incredible.

JOE: How do you knit something that tiny? I mean, I assume it’s knitted. I don’t know. I don’t know how it was made.

JOHN: I think it was. I think it was.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: You would walk in the shop. That’s why I loved the Creature Shop because you’d be walking in and like, you know, you’re shooting something and you’re tired. And it’s like late at night and you’re about to go home. And you walk in and there’s all these brilliant minds in there just like gluing and sewing and creating. And like you would walk over to the Doozer area. There’d be someone making little Doozer dolls or little Doozer babies with weird hair. Oh, I love it.

HALLE: They would always make things, too, and sort of like… I don’t want to say pitch them to us, but they would make them without asking, in the hopes that they would be used.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: They always were.

JOE: That actually makes me think, is there something that they made and you’re like, “You can’t put that in the show.” Like is there something that just, yeah, that doesn’t seem. I don’t want to say inappropriate.

JOHN: Nothing inappropriate. No, no, nothing inappropriate.

HALLE: All the alcohol bottles. The beer cans. I’m kidding. They didn’t do that. I’m kidding.

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: I’m trying to think of like…There might have been, less about like, “Oh, we shouldn’t do that.” And more like, sometimes you just can’t fit it all in. Like I think that they overbuilt to the point where you’re just like, Jordan Canning I remember, one of our incredible directors and producing director for season two, like I remember her episode in season one with the big Doozer helmet party where they’re all in those crazy, outlandish…

It was like, oh my god, like with the carnival. And she’s like, how am I going to shoot? We shot probably an hour worth of footage that 30 seconds of it made it into the show. So they just over-delivered constantly in the best possible way.

I think the only time we were like, “can we get away with this?” Actually to your point, was when they built some of the Wizard of Oz gags in the first episode of season two, during the windstorm.

HALLE: Oh yeah.

JOHN: Because, you know, like the inkspot dressed as the cow or like the old lady knitting, but actually it was just like, “You know what? Let’s make this as Fraggle-silly as possible. Why not?”

JOE: Look, Wizard of Oz does not own the idea of an inkspot riding a flying bicycle.

JOHN: That’s right. That’s exactly right.

JOE: Right. E.T. owns that.

[All laugh]

JOHN: Exactly.

JOE: So Red tells Pogey to blow the Fraggle horn to wake everybody up and there’s like a little moment where Pogey starts to blow into the wrong end. That’s going to come back later. And everyone wakes up and she says, “What they really need to fix the turbine problem is hope.”

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: Now this feels like a huge reversal for Red. Like this is the kind of thing that I feel like Mokey would have said or one of the characters would have said, “Hope.” And Red would have gone, “Hope? Are you crazy? We need to hit this thing with a hammer.” You know, like she’s all about action. And it does make me think, we talked to Karen Prell a few weeks ago on this podcast, and she said that Red always gets the most excited over her first idea. Whatever it is.

So she’s like, “Hope? Great, we’re running with it. No questions. We’re just going to keep going.” Was there a moment here in the scripting where you were like, “It doesn’t really feel like Red but we want Red to be the star.” Or is it just like, “Nope, that makes sense.”

JOHN: Well, being in the writers’ room, I think it’s two things. I think first of all, it’s we love discovering other sides of characters that are unexpected. You know, you look at Gobo when he cries in episode 10. Like when he loses his mind for that moment. That was a little bit like we’re pushing that level with him. Or when Wembley becomes a spokesfraggle in season one.

And with Red, Red is such a great character. First of all, because Karen is such a genius performer and has added so many layers to her, but also, to your point like she runs with her first idea. But when she’s passionate about something, she’s passionate about it. And she’s not like 40% passionate. She’s 100% passionate about it.

So there was that and also, Halle Stanford, you know, her big mission in life is to give kids hope. And you know, she kind of… I want to say you coined this phrase, maybe you didn’t, but you did in my life. You’re the first person who’s ever said it. Of hope punk. Making hope cool for kids. 

And, you know, introducing kids the idea that like… Because I think in our culture right now, so much of our humor is cynical and it’s nasty and it’s hurtful. And it’s finding the negative side of something and taunting it, as opposed to looking at the earnest. Fraggle Rock’s very earnest. There’s a lot of earnest moments in Fraggle Rock, which I love. So, Halle really kind of challenged us to embrace that for families and their kids who are dealing with a lot of anxiety and a lot of stressful situations in the world.

So we were really inspired by that in the room and we brought that up and then, you know, Halle is like Red in her energy and her passion and like, you know, driving everybody to give the best that they can give. So I think it really came out of that inspiration from Halle, honestly.

HALLE: Oh, I love hearing that. Well, hope punk, I did not coin the phrase. It is an existing phrase.

JOHN: Oh, darn it.

HALLE: When I read it so long ago, I was like, oh wait, this speaks to everything that, you know, we do here at Henson because we are filled with heart, but we’re kind of cool. I mean, you know, like, we have David Bowie, man. He’s the Goblin King. He’s the coolest.

[Joe laughs]

HALLE: Though I was trying to remember when you asked that question about Red because it does seem obvious to give something like sort of hope to a Gobo or a Red, but the punk of it is that Red’s super cool. And that message coming from her, I think really means a lot to the Fraggles and to the audience. So it just seemed more impactful and powerful and maybe less obvious.

And so maybe that’s the message that we have to say to kids and families. You’re going to be amongst people that go, “Hope?” Just like you said, like you thought Red was going to say that. But to see a character kind of go through this journey, this up and down journey, her hope and then her nope is really important to see. That you have to just kind of, having hope is hard. It’s hard. It’s something that has to be maintained and nurtured and rallied. And so who better to rally than Red?

JOHN: Well, and to Halle’s point, you know, sometimes the opposite. We get inspired. It’s so much more fun to write for the opposite side of a character sometimes. Like it was fun to think of once we realized it was Red, then we were like, “Oh, but where does she go when she gets super down?”

Because the one thing you almost never see is Red going to a super dark place like that. She’s usually like, “Let’s do it. Come on.” Like she’s usually, like Halle was saying, the rallier. And so it became really fun for us to think about like, “Oh my gosh. What if she literally tried to be Boober’s contemporary in the nope feel? And then what drives her up a wall is that Boober of all people ends up being the hopeful one.” And she’s like, “What are you…?”

So like that scene is one of my favorite scenes. We’ll get there, but like that’s one of the, I think that’s what became exciting to us was like let’s take this character and do exactly the opposite of what people expect. And then realize that like she really drives everybody. Like when she loses hope, everyone loses hope.

JOE: Yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, I feel like we’ve seen a lot of that from Red in this season, too, where Red just has an idea. In the the colder boulders episode where it’s just like, no, we’re doing this thing. And everyone’s just like, “Well, that’s what we have to do now because Red said.”

And it’s not that she’s the boss, but like it’s just infectious. Whatever she does is so infectious to everyone else.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: So in the next scene here, Red starts bouncing on her tail like a spring as she starts to brainstorm. And then all the other Fraggles do it too. This looks so good. Whatever you guys are doing, it looks great. And I mean, I can kind of picture whatever green screen or matting off the puppeteers. Whatever. It doesn’t matter. And I think the big reason is because the tail you’ve curled into like a perfect spring.

JOHN: Yeah. It’s my fault.

JOE: What is your fault? Tell me.

JOHN: It’s my fault. Well, because I wrote this episode and you know, there was a lot of plot exposition to get out in this moment of like we need to like explain, how’s this going to happen and what’s the plan and what is hope and how does it work?

And it’s a lot. It’s a lot to do. You are a dead person on a puppet show if you just have a bunch of characters talking. You know what I mean? That’s not what puppets do best. Puppets do physical things best. They do adventure. They do peril. They do emotion. But if they’re just sharing information, it gets boring. So you have to think about ways to keep people engaged and so I think the feedback was they need to be doing something super physical here or something. We need to get the energy up so this becomes a fun thing for kids to pay attention to.

And I stupidly had the idea of like what if they bounce on their tails when they’re like super– that’s how they’re going to think. And on paper and I mean, and I’m a puppeteer. Like I know what it takes to do this stuff. It’s my fault. I ruined everything. But actually it ended up being a challenge that everyone got really excited about because it was like well, how do you position the tail because you got to hide the arm and the arm can’t cut off the tail, so you have to spring it around. And then you can’t spring it around because then you can see through it because the blue screen.

So like the Creature Shop really came up with a brilliant way. Basically they moved the actual physical tails of the puppets forward. So instead of being on their back, they were really almost right behind their legs. And they put a spring kind of coil inside of it with a rod. And so we’re literally basically…it’s hard to do it on a podcast. But if you imagine basically our arms behind the spring of the tail and we’re controlling the puppet bouncing up down with a rod on the bottom of the tail bouncing onto the surface. And then the blue screen just wipes this out.

So it ended up being actually, from a puppet place, a pretty simple thing. But to get there took a lot of like, “How in the–?” Like Poor J.J. was like, “What were you thinking?” But it looked great. The Creature Shop made it look great and it totally worked out.

JOE: Even just like, and again I’m saying this as someone who’s not a puppeteer, but in this recent rewatching of this episode, it’s something I don’t think anyone would normally think of, but the distance that your arm has to piston up and down to get the right, while the character’s speaking…

JOHN: Yep.

JOE: And it’s like, I can’t. Like I’m trying to do it right now and it’s just like, I can’t get the rhythm and I don’t know how you did it.

JOHN: It was very physical.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: Luckily because of blue screen, we could see. We could almost be standing behind the puppet as opposed to under it. But if you look at where we shot that, that little wall that’s there, it’s kind of like whenever a director wants to put the characters behind or on that wall, we’re all like, “Uuuuugh.” Because it’s so tight. Because the pond and all the infrastructure for the pond is right behind it.

So we were also just like literally, it was like the last two weeks or week of shooting we were all just compressed against each other and just kind of were like, well we’re gonna be here for a few hours. And, you know, luckily we all love, truly love each other. So we were laughing and having fun and telling jokes. But yeah, it was not the most comfortable thing we’ve ever done, but, you know, good puppetry is supposed to be uncomfortable. So there you go.

JOE: There you go. Yeah. And the Fraggles are not the only one who’s bouncing. Cotterpin is on her pogo stick. She’s flooping!

JOHN: She’s flooping! Yes.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: I’m so glad you knew what that was. Yes.

JOE: Ah, so rev. She’s so rev.

HALLE: Oh my god.

JOHN: [laughs] We almost worked it in. We almost worked both of those words. And I was like, I gotta get something.

JOE: I had a feeling. I was thinking like, Johnny knows what that is. He knows what she’s doing.

JOHN: I almost did it.

JOE: If she got the hiccups then that would have been…

JOHN: Yeah. Then you would’ve known.

JOE: Maybe that’s too much. Yeah. We don’t need to go down that road. So later on, we see the Doozers have set up their gusty sucker, and the Fraggles are all excited. Icy Joe calls Red The Captain of Hope. But Gobo’s still feeling down because Junior had thrown away the clappy hands a few episodes ago. And he says, he’s feeling bad, sad, a little mad, just not very rad. I just like the fact that the word radical exists in the Fraggle world.

JOHN: He needed another rhyme there, I guess. Yeah.

JOE: Yeah. Right, yeah. And so in this scene, too, Red for some reason seems to be avoiding using Gobo’s name cause she calls him “sigh guy” after he like walks in and sighs. And then she calls him “Vest and Stripes.”

JOHN: (Laughing) Yes.

JOE: Was that intentional to just say like we don’t want her to say Gobo?

JOHN: (in normal voice) No. I think we talked about this before and here. But the way that the writing room process works is we get assigned the script. We come up with the idea in the room, the premise, and then the writer gets assigned. And we go off. We write a first draft. We bring it back to the room and the room kind of deconstructs it. And we add things and change things and cut things. Then we go back and we write a second draft and we bringit  back.

So it becomes this really beautiful like group process where we all throw out ideas and Alex [Cuthbertson] and Matt [Fussfeld] are genius head writers and show runners. Like they find ways to infuse fun one-liners or throw-aways or vocabulary things. And I think that that probably was from them.

HALLE: I know it was. I know it was. I didn’t want to say anything because I thought well, what if Johnny did write them.

JOHN: No, I definitely did not. No.

HALLE: I don’t think I’ve ever heard Johnny say “rad” in his life.

[John laughs]

HALLE: But Alex and Matt definitely have a cadence to the way that they’ve like layered on top of this new Fraggle Rock. And that’s definitely Alex and Matt.

JOHN: Yeah. It came from them, for sure. Yeah. And it’s kind of great because it’s at the point now where like all of the writers have such a distinct voice, that you can… I can, not always, but sometimes you can watch a show and I can be like, oh that had to come from Charley [Feldman] or that had to come from Sabrina [Jalees] or that had to come from Jocelyn [Stevenson].

Like, you know just because that’s what’s beautiful is we’re in the room just throwing out ideas and throwing out one liners.

JOE: Yeah I love that. Yeah. So here, Red, we were talking a minute ago about how she might have been acting slightly out of character with this hope idea. But she’s really acting out of character here because she suggests that maybe Gobo should read one of his Uncle Traveling Matt’s postcards.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: And, actually she’s going to read it herself. Which is like, who is this person? Who is this Fraggle?

JOHN: That felt like it’s kind of you mentioned. That felt like a moment where you talked about that the the word was like, this is how like on high that she is, being this like co-captain that she’s like, “You know what? We’re even going to read your weird uncle’s postcard. I don’t care. Let’s go.” Like she’s just like, “Let’s do it.”

JOE: She’s very efficient. She’s like, “If we’re going to do this, we’re going to do it now. You’re taking too long. Let me just take the postcard out of your hands.”

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: Well, I’d also say that hope, and this is based on science not woo woo, that hope definitely inspires you to be a kinder person.

JOHN: Yes.

HALLE: To be more pro social. So I think we’re experiencing some of the neurological effects of hope on Red right there in that she’s feeling very, very friendly towards Uncle Traveling Matt.

JOHN: I love that. I love that you just said, “Woo woo.” This is not woo woo.

HALLE: This is not woo woo. It’s based on science.

JOHN: Yes.

HALLE: Yeah.

JOE: So first of all, she starts to read the postcard and she does a little impression of Traveling Matt which I love. I love when puppets do impressions of other puppets. I think that’s super fun. And Traveling Matt, is he in South Korea? Is that where this was filmed?

JOHN: Halle Stanford, tell the story because you were there.

HALLE: I was there. Yes. He is in South Korea. He is in Seoul and that’s where he ended up.

JOE: Wow.

HALLE: And it was amazing.

JOHN: And we shot that actually after we wrapped. That was literally the last thing shot for season two I think. right?

HALLE: It was, because the last shot, I was with the director John Rosenbaum, who is a great director to be with on a last shot. And so we called it out in Korea, “Last shot of the season of Fraggle Rock.” On the top of a helipad.

JOE: Amazing.

HALLE: In South Korea.

JOE: Wow. Wow. I love that.

HALLE: I actually think I have that video too. I’ll send you that video.

JOE: Yes, please.

JOHN: And what was the experience you and John had on top of the helipad? Did you enjoy being that high up?

HALLE: Nope.

[John and Joe laugh]

HALLE: I mean there were, you know, we shot several pieces in Seoul, but the one I’m referencing is the Aespa music video which we shot on top of a helipad, because it looked cool. And then you could see the city beyond, but I think [laughs] I think what we didn’t realize was when we went to go scout the day before there were no gates around the helipad. There was no fence.

JOHN: There was no fence.

HALLE: Yeah. There was nothing. It’s just like, I could have run off the edge of which my brain kept telling me, you know, you could do that.

JOHN: Intrusive thoughts.

HALLE: In my intrusive thought I was like, I could run right off this thing. Anyway we didn’t realize this. When we walked up the steps, it was quite the shock. And we both hit the floor on our knees like, “Oh my god.”

JOHN: I got so many texts from Halle that today that were like, “This is amazing. Oh my god, I’m scared. Fraggle Rock. I’ll do anything for this show. Oh my god. What’s happening?” Like it was all these emotions.

HALLE: Yeah, it was crazy. 

JOE: Wow. I would have been the same way. That’s terrifying to me. And I also assume it was windy, which doesn’t help when you’re up that high.

HALLE: It was windy and we had these balloons. And then I remember I said to the crew there, “Well, what’s going to happen if the wind is too windy with these balloons?” And they had no answer. I’m like, “We’re going to need to come up with a solution here.”

JOE: Wow.

HALLE: I came in with my American ways. My American ways. But it was an incredible crew. We loved it. John and I fell in love with the whole K-pop scene. And listen, Kevin Clash warrior on that helipad.

JOE: Yeah.

HALLE: It was hard to you’re down on your back on a helipad with a K-pop band with Uncle Traveling Matt. But isn’t he hilarious in the video? Isn’t he great?

JOE: The whole thing is great.

HALLE: He’s so great in that video. I love it.

JOE: I love this whole video. So first of all, I should say they’re singing a song called “Get Goin.’” This is from the original series episode “Gobo’s School for Explorers.” And I love that you found a way to naturally create an opportunity for a Fraggle Rock cover with another band like you did last season with Foo Fighters.

So it feels like it’s a bit of a tradition for you. So I hope that that keeps going if there’s going to be more Back to the Rock.

JOHN: Well, and we should say that Harvey Mason Jr. and Andrew Hey and Sam Ramirez who are his associates for all the music that they do, they are geniuses. And they really can take any song and make it work. I remember like, you know you listen to the original “Get goin’” which is one of my favorite songs, it’s very “ding da-diddle la ding.” It’s very kind of bouncy and kind of has that wonderful kind of bluegrass. Like it’s got this kind of doo wop kind of feel to it.

And I remember we said to them, “Make this the K-pop song. Bye.” And you know, Aespa had to be on board with it. They had to be excited about doing it. And they loved it. And it was like, it was this wonderful… I just give Harvey and Andrew and Sam–

HALLE: Yeah, well Harvey really made the introduction to the K-pop world.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: He was the one who recommended it. Johnny and I duked it out over, he knows we duked it out over, should we have K-pop in Fraggle Rock?

JOHN: Well we were just kind of like, K-pop?

HALLE: Aren’t you glad we did Johnny.

JOHN: Oh my god. Yes.

HALLE: Aren’t you glad? Okay.

JOHN: I didn’t know any K-pop music at all and now it’s like all my Spotify and Apple music is like K-pop now. I’m so obsessed with it now. So I’m so glad I got introduced to it.

JOE: That’s great.

HALLE: But the Foo Fighters, just I know we’re talking about Season 1, but the Foo Fighters actually that was their version of the song.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: I mean they took it. They made it their own. Whereas with the K-pop, completely a Harvey Mason Jr. specialty but also a lot of approvals. A lot of notes. It was very, a lot of heavy input from the publishers and everything, so it was really.

JOHN: And Apple Music, yeah. Apple music too.

HALLE: And Apple Music. Yeah. So it just had to be just right and every little detail had to be taken care of with having such a big K-pop band. By the way, it was like intense security too. Like nobody could know where we were in the Aespa location. So they put us at the top of a helipad. Nobody could get us there!

JOE: And yet still, I’m sure that there were Aespa fans who were like, “Okay I could just paraglide in. I could find my way.”

JOHN: Yeah, probably.

HALLE: And they didn’t really know… You know what? They didn’t really know Fraggle Rock that well in South Korea to be honest. So being over there, they absolutely fell in love with puppets. It was so interesting because, you know, you come to some of these celebrities and bands because they have a nostalgia, just like we all do, for the property. But in the case of our crew and Aespa, they really didn’t know it and fell in love.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: So it was really fun to kind of see the characters have a really new life in a new part of the world.

JOE: Well, now that Fraggle Rock is a huge hit in South Korea because of this scene, I’m going to put out in my wish list for season three that you get Bong Joon-ho to come and direct an episode.

JOHN: Yes. Oh my gosh. That would be incredible.

JOE: I mean Parasite is already kind of a Fraggle Rock story. You know.

JOHN: Listen.

JOE: The basement.

HALLE: The levels.

JOE: Yes.

HALLE: Hidden beneath the walls.

JOE: Exactly. Yeah.

JOHN: We have manifested so many things for the show, like things that we never thought would happen. I totally manifested Patti LaBelle. I was like it’s gonna happen. Patti LaBelle. She’s a legend. It’s gonna happen. No. Yeah, it’s gonna happen. So I believe in us. I believe if we say it now it will happen.

JOE: Fantastic. I do want to ask one more thing about this and that’s so the Traveling Matt segments throughout this whole season, he’s really gone international. So what was the decision behind like, I actually don’t know what countries he’s gone to. It looked like maybe Mexico was one of them.

HALLE: Mexico City.

JOE: Mmhmm. And like why not just keep it all in LA or Calgary?

JOHN: It’s such an important part of the message of the show. It’s always been this global, international series that really is meant for everyone across the world, not just for Americans. And in the original series he did go places. He did go internationally. And he went to New Zealand. He went to Paris. So he did go places.

So the first season, when you do the first season, you’re just trying to get through and you do as much as you can. And you try to, you know, we didn’t have the ability at that point to really take him as much in the world as we wanted to. And second season, that was a big part of our mission was that he goes more international.

And I also give credit to Chris Plourde who’s our producer in second, he really was very passionate about that, about making that work and figure out a way to do that. And now it’s kind of like, it’s introduced this idea that he literally could go anywhere in the world and beyond. So it’s an exciting…I think that is a wonderful message to kids, right? And to people around the world.

JOE: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

JOHN: Uncle Matt could be in your backyard tomorrow. You know. You just don’t know.

HALLE: Well and just also remember for season one, we were in lockdown.

JOHN: That’s right. Oh, that! [laughs]

[Joe laughs]

HALLE: Remember?

JOHN: I forgot about that. Oh yeah.

HALLE: If we could go back in time, I think we would have tried to at least go, you know, experiment with one other location. But it was just impossible. We couldn’t do it. So it was such a pleasure to be able to do it. And I have a little teeny detail which I love. And it’s going to mean nothing to anyone but me. But like my favorite thing in the dailies down to Mexico City was hearing them say, “Acción.”

I just loved it. It made me so happy. Acción! I want us to do that now instead of action from now on.

JOE: All right, so season three Traveling Matt’s coming to my house. Right?

JOHN: He can.

JOE: He can be anywhere. Why not here?

[Crosstalk]

JOHN: I mean he’s obviously a big eater. He likes food. So if you’ve got something to offer him.

HALLE: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah I’ll put out a feast for him.

HALLE: Okay. Love it.

JOHN: Done.

JOE: So in the Gorgs’ garden, they’ve been setting up this turbine again and Pa and Ma are kind of canoodling over the whole thing. And we kind of follow this tube that they’ve set up all the way down to Whistling Hollow. And Architect tells Cotterpin to hit the button and he’ll say something really cool. So she counts down from three, hits the button, and he says, “Here come the babies.”

JOHN: Yep. Yep.

JOE: Which I rewound four times because it made me laugh so much. Were there alts for that? Like did you have a bunch of silly things? Or was it always, “Here come the babies?”

JOHN: We did do alts. I will say, I did not write that line. I will not take credit for that line. I think that was an Alex and Matt specialty. They love writing for Architect and Cotterpin because Donna Kimball and I have so much fun on set just improv-ing as them. And it just like, it makes them laugh like just all the time. So they were on set when we shot that and I think we did a few different alts. But “Here come the babies,” was just such a weird like…what is wrong with him?

[Halle and Joe laugh]

JOHN: Like it’s such a bizarre… And the fact that he immediately identifies too, like, oh, that was weird. I just I love that moment because it’s just so unexpected and bizarre. And I remember when we, first of all, it was hilarious when we shot it, right? Like we were all laughing when we shot it. But then we would get messages from our post department as they were getting the footage in. And they were all like, what is happening with “Here come the babies?” Like everyone reacted to that line. [laughs] So bizarre.

JOE: [laughs] I think he’s got a new catchphrase.

JOHN: (in voice of Architect Doozer) Here come the babies. (in normal voice) Yeah.

JOE: Yeah.

HALLE: He’s unhinged this season. Architect is unhinged.

JOHN: He’s unhinged. He’s so unhinged. He’s so unhinged. But that’s why I love him is because he’s…You know and I love the message of like Cotterpin…Donna always says, “I think that Cotterpin is like a little kid who says the emperor has no clothes.” And I love that. That’s such a brilliant way to identify it. And The Architect doesn’t have any will. He just thinks he’s in charge but really it’s Cotterpin.

JOE: Right. Yes. Love it. Yeah, so when you guys are making an Architect doll that has a pull string in the back.

JOHN: (in voice of Architect Doozer) Here come the babies.

JOE: This should be one of the things that he should say. Yeah. Exactly.

JOHN: (in normal voice) Absolutely. Who doesn’t want that?

HALLE: What was that, Johnny? What did he say?

JOHN: (in voice of Architect Doozer) Here come the babies!

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: (laughing) So stupid.

JOE: So the Doozers, they managed to grab the gusties. They send them through the tube. And they do not budge the turbine at all. It doesn’t work. And as Red says now the gusties are gone forever. Which it seemed like it was so hard to get rid of them throughout this whole season and now it’s like, that’s it? Like, two seconds and they’re gone?

JOHN: (in normal voice) Yeah. Like that was another fun opposite moment of her, right? Was like before she wanted to get rid of them desperately and now she’s sad that they’re gone.

JOE: Sure.

JOHN: So it also shows flip sides.

JOE: Yeah. And there’s a cool puppetry moment here where when Red realizes what happens, her pigtails droop.

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: So is that something the puppet can do or was there a way that you had to rig that for this moment here?

JOHN: Well I used to be obsessed with that on the original series when I was a kid. And I was like, (whispering) How did they do that?” (in normal voice) And I pictured like Faz Fazakas creating these amazing servo driven ponytails– er, pigtails and everything. No. It’s literally just like invisible wire attached to her pigtails that we just pull down.

And, you know, they’re a special kind of pigtail that are flexible but it’s a very simple effect but you’re right. It’s almost like Red’s happy energy is in those pigtails all the time. That’s what keeps them up. And then when she’s feeling down, they droop.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: So it’s a nice visual to kind of match herr emotion.

JOE: Yeah, no, it looks great. And yes, you’re right that her normal pigtails, they’re like this explosive energy that’s always around her head.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: And so of course that’s going to reflect with her attitude or with her mood rather as they droop. Especially now that she is no longer The Captain of Hope. She’s The Captain of Nope.

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: And as we said before, she goes to Boober’s cave because he’s usually the guy who’s all mopey. And I love that the walls are just completely covered in laundry. Like just constantly, things are constantly drying.

JOHN: Yeah. Yeah. And to the point, who wears half of this stuff? Like no one wears these socks. What is wrong with you?

[Halle laughs]

JOE: Right. Yeah. Yeah, so well first of all, so Red’s in the water basin or whatever you call that thing. That big metal tub. She’s drowning her sorrows. And so she kind of goes off screen and comes back for a second and she’s wearing one of Boober’s hats and his scarf.

JOHN: Yep.

JOE: And it’s like pulled over her eyes. So this is, by the way, this is two times now in this episode that she’s done an impression of another character. How about that?

JOHN: Oh you’re right. Yes, you’re right.

JOE: Yeah.

HALLE: Dream come true.

JOHN: And I want to point that moment out too, because you’re mentioning the hat, that this is where the Creature Shop…You know all the little tricks that you don’t notice because it’s normal to us as people who do these things. But to pull Red’s hat back, you know, that’s a huge rig for a puppet to do. And the brilliant I think it was Jurgen [Ferguson] one of our amazing wranglers and Scotty Johnson, they came up with this like little contraption that like pulled it back and like pulled it behind her eyeballs.

And like the kind of thing that like if you were directing humans, you’d never have to think about. And it would take two seconds. But like with a puppet you got to think about as a special effect. Again it’s not really noticeable, but it works so well.

JOE: Yeah, no. It really does. I didn’t notice it. That’s how unnoticeable it was. [laughs]

JOHN: See! There you go. You didn’t think about it.

JOE: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. It worked. Yeah.

And yeah. Red asks the question that we have been asking for years. Which is why does Boober wash so many socks when no one in Fraggle Rock wears them? And I believe, I meant to look this up because we take part in the press junkets before each season. And I did one with some of the characters including Boober. And I asked him why is he always washing socks and he shut it down so quickly. He’s like, “We’re not going to talk about that.”

And I don’t know if this was already like coming. If he knew. Or if it’s just like, no, everyone’s been asking that. We finally need to come up with an answer.

JOHN: I think if it was Dave, he was probably making a joke about that. For sure. Yeah. But yeah, it’s like, Boober doesn’t want to talk about that. We can’t talk about that. Yeah.

[Joe and John laugh]

JOHN: But yeah.

JOE: Well, I’m glad we finally have some confirmation about why because he says he hopes that someday that the Fraggles might start wearing them and then they’ll get dirty and he’ll get to wash them again. It’s the circle of suds.

[John and Halle laugh]

JOE: And my only note here is I’m sorry that this wasn’t a song cue into a little Lion King.

JOHN: I know! It should’ve been a song. “The Circle of Suds.” Boober’s happy laundry washing song. I know.

JOE: I’m just picturing Boober like on the edge of a cliff, holding a laundry basket up.

[Halle and John laugh]

HALLE: That’s hilarious.

JOHN: Next time.

JOE: Next time. Next time. Yeah, but Red wants to know where all of his doom and gloom is because that’s why she came to him. And he says that he knows that things could always turn bad but he’s hopeful that they won’t even now. Because things are bad. And I feel like when the worse things are the more Boober’s like yeah it’s fine. It’s when they’re good, that’s when he’s really panicking.

JOHN: Yeah, well it’s, you know, Dave Goelz, his brain is so brilliant but I remember him explaining like the way he looks at Boober. And he was like, he’s pointing out all the things that can go wrong so he’s prepared for when they do.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: You know and that’s true. There are people like that. There are people like that who like, there was that great episode in the original series of “Marooned” where they’re lost when they’re under the cave quake and they’re trapped. Which, by the way, is like my worst nightmare. And you know, you expect Boober to be the one losing his mind and panicking. And actually, he’s the one who’s very kind of like matter of fact like, “Oh we’re going to run out of air. And we’re probably not going to live very long and we’ll probably die.”

And it’s, I think a lot of people are like that where they…I do this, where I’m anxious about the worst thing that could possibly happen. Which I think is probably because I want to be like emotionally prepared if it does. And then when you actually go through something kind of crappy, you’re like, “Oh, it’s not what I thought it was going to be.” So it’s a very real thing.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: And I think Dave plays that so beautifully with Boober.

JOE: I agree. Yeah, yeah. That’s, yeah. There’s definitely some lessons that we can all kind of take from that without taking it quite so far into being a doom and gloom person all the time like Boober.

Speaking of doom and gloom, they, Red and Boober here, they notice that they hear some Fraggles kind of repeating the word, “nope nope nope” in the background. And they look out of the… I guess it’s a window. I don’t know what to call that. The little opening.

JOHN: Yeah, his little window onto the rock. Yeah.

JOE: Right, yeah. And all the Fraggles are out there. They’re just kind of pacing in circles and they’ve all been, you know, just their energy is sapped. And the cool thing about this is the color contrast for all that is pulled way back.

HALLE: Yeah.

JOHN: I’m glad you noticed it. Yay!

JOE: Oh my god. Of course. Because, first of all, I don’t think I noticed it right away the first time I watched it. But once they start pacing in front of Boober and Red and Boober and Red are in full color you can really see the difference. And it is a cool effect. That’s a really cool, subtle effect. Yeah. And I appreciate it.

JOHN: You know it’s our color correction in our post department. They work so hard and they were really excited by the chance. Of course I’m like, you can’t…Can you do that? And it’s amazing with technology today how they could track it. And they could track where the colors were. And Tim O’Brien, one of our producers who works so hard in post production, he was just passionate about getting that right and it’s such a subtle thing, you’re right. But it really is cool when you notice that it’s there.

JOE: Yeah.

HALLE: Also remember though, fun fact, I also remember like a conversation with the producers where some people challenged that it couldn’t be done in a way.

JOHN: Mmhmm. That’s right.

HALLE: And were worried, “Oh, that’s not going to look right. It’s not going to look in sync.” So I’m glad that we did it. I’m glad that we tried. I remember saying, “Let’s try it. And If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. And then we change it back. But it did.

JOE: I appreciate that like when there’s that kind of challenge I feel like that’s a guarantee that someone’s going to say, “I’ll show you.” And then they go and they do something magical.

JOHN: Yeah and sometimes you have to see something to know…You have to see it to understand what it is. And it’s hard for some people I think to visualize like what it could be. So sometimes you just need to show it.

JOE: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Boober says he knows exactly what to do and he goes to the Trash Heap and begs her, “What do we do?”

[Halle laughs]

JOE: So Trash Heap and Philo and Gunge are composting. But what I love here is that Philo and Gunge are wearing Doozer helmets.

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: What a cool little detail. I didn’t know they made them that size.

JOHN: I know. Right? Well, it was a nice little subtle thing of like, and I think that’s honestly because some of the story there got compressed in for time. But that like basically the Doozers and the trash, like everyone’s been working together to try to make this whole thing work. And so it’s the message of Fraggle Rock. We all have to be together to move forward and so it’s just a nice little subtle way to show that like Philo and Gunge–

Also we were like, “Have the Doozers ever been at the Trash Heap before?” And we’re like, “I don’t think they have.” So it also felt like kind of a cool little like, Philo and Gunge would probably be like, (in voice of Gunge) “Oh, I love that hat. That’s so cute. Let me wear that.” (in normal voice) I feel like they would probably be all into it. You know? (in voice of Gunge) Philo, you look amazing. Look at that. Look at the little, it’s so cute. Oh my gosh. (in normal voice) Like, I feel like they would be like that.

JOE: [laughs] I love it. Yeah. And you’re right. I don’t remember the Doozers ever being in the Trash Heap. And we see them there as they’re carting away the compost which felt odd to see it. But like not in a wrong way. Just like a “Is that really a Doozer? Oh it is. Oh cool. Okay.”

JOHN: I know. It was funny to see them in the garden just like driving little all-terrain trucks. Yeah.

JOE: Yeah. Exactly. So Red asks why they’re bothering to do this because the turbine idea didn’t work. And Marjory reminds her that it still helps to do something. And that’s how you hold on to hope. Because hope is contagious and so is mope and nope, as we’re learning that it’s all contagious specifically from Red Fraggle. But probably all of us.

JOHN: It’s true.

JOE: And she inspires…Yes. And she inspires Red to take a leap of faith. And she takes this literally, as she jumps into the well in the gorgs’ garden. And she does a cannonball into the lagoon.

And, oh but first actually I skipped the part where Red and Boober’s little feet, we see them running through the garden which I always love seeing.

JOHN: Yes. It’s so cute, right?

JOE: And then they run right over the clappy hands and Pa Gorg grabs it. That’ll come back later. But yes, when Red drops down, cannonballs into the pool, it creates this beautiful rainbow over the pond. Which again, there’s some really, really gorgeous shots in this episode. It has been noticed. It’s been appreciated. I love it.

JOHN: Oh I love that.

HALLE: It’s a beautiful moment.

JOE: Yeah. And that rainbow brings the color back to all the Fraggles. They’re no longer monochrome.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: So Red tells them that she has hope that maybe more wind will come and they can’t just do nothing. It’s better to do something. She’s just learned that lesson five seconds ago. And if it does, they’re going to need a better way to direct it to the turbine. And she has another epiphany. Let’s use the fraggle horn and attach it to the wind tube. It’ll focus the wind.

But how will they lift it as Boober points out, a hundred Fraggles couldn’t lift it. But Gobo knows somebody, and he’s going to go talk to him.

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: Yeah, we got a lot of plot to get through here. There’s a lot of action.

JOHN: I know. Gotta wrap this whole thing up.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Seriously. So Gobo goes to confront Junior. And I love this moment too because like, again there’s a lot happening in this episode. You don’t have time to ease into it. And Gobo also character-wise, he’s probably done with that. With all the subtleties as well. So immediately, he tells Junior that he’s hurt.

JOHN: Yep.

JOE: He doesn’t like that he threw away the clappy hands. But this isn’t an end of the friendship. They still want to be friends. And hey, we still need your help to get this thing done. And yeah, between that and then in a moment, Pa Gorg comes in and has like a real big moment of growth as well toward Junior. I love that.

JOHN: It’s one of my favorite scenes in the whole thing. Yeah.

JOE: Yeah. There’s just a lot of like the end of these story arcs here for this season finale. And it all kind of is coming together in one little moment.

JOHN: Yeah. I definitely can admit that I had… now that I’m far away from it. I had like so many panic attacks writing this episode, because it was like it was so much to get into. You know? We have a limit on how many pages it could be and how long the episode could be. And I remember just being like, “Oh my god.”

I was sitting at home, staring at my computer screen like what? Because it is. It’s a lot of storylines to wrap up very quickly. And you can’t lose the message of the whole episode. But I do love that scene with Pa and Junior and Gobo because it’s– first of all we shot that live. So I was in the blue cube across the stage and we had the in-ear, so we could hear each other. And Dan [Garza] and Frank [Meschkuleit] and I worked really hard on what are we saying here? What are these moments?

And J.J. was really passionate about making sure that Gobo stood up for himself. It was just a really wonderful moment. And I like that Pa finally has a moment of humanity. No pun intended. And, you know, he really kind of shows a kinder emotion. And I think that sometimes even people unexpectedly, you can have hope that they will finally break through and see the truth.

JOE: Yeah. Especially because we were teased with it at the end of last season.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: That Pa had all this growth and then it’s immediately undone at the beginning of season two and so now we’re seeing like he’s going two steps further.

JOHN: And that happened, by the way. I know that there was criticism of that. But like, oh he’s right, Pa is right back to being like– That happens, you know. People take a half a step forward and then we’re so conditioned as creatures of habit right. Like we’re used to certain things and we’re used to certain beliefs and even if you want to change your routine or you want to change your emotions or you want to change a point of view, you can do that. But then you get pulled back.

And so I think that was important with Pa this year was to show like sometimes you get pulled back. But then you can still go forward. You can still make that move forward.

HALLE: Well, we talked a lot about his generational trauma.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: Believe it or not, that was a conversation. And so he was pulled back into sort of these loops of what has existed before. And it’s very hard for anyone to break those, particularly Pa.

JOHN: Yeah. What would my dad think? Like that’s a big thing, especially for men, you know?

JOE: And knowing where this story is going to end up for the Gorgs in this episode, I feel like that’s going to have to be a really big topic if we’re able to continue the story in season three. Of like, how do you stop the generational trauma as you’re raising the next generation?

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: We gotta to see that. So in this moment, Junior grabs Gobo. He hugs him tight. I love seeing them interact because I know it’s just a little tiny Gobo toy that he’s just hugging to his chest. But then we get this great shot of Gobo like from the puppet Gobo, from his perspective being hugged against this giant Junior Gorg hand and body.

JOE: It was actually, it’s a combo of two. Well, you got one of them which is like, yeah they built like an oversized Junior Gorg chest and then we had that wonderful oversize hand from the first season. So it’s that combo which I loved shooting. And I loved like just so silly.

But then the other thing, I just want to give really credit to Ben Durocher who’s the Junior Gorg body performer and one of our brilliant puppeteers. The shot where it’s full-body Junior with regular Gorg size with little Gobo, that’s the mini Gobo puppet which is a rod puppet that has a little trigger for the mouth and a little thing for the head movement. He’s literally, they cut a slit in Junior’s stomach and they fed the rod puppet through there and then they stuffed Junior’s, I guess that would be his left hand. No, right hand.

And so Ben is actually inside of the Junior body puppeteering the little Gobo along with doing Junior Gorg’s body. So he’s literally doing two characters at once inside of that costume.

JOE: Wow.

JOHN: And it’s so good. It’s so good. And it was so brilliant in the shop too. But it works so well and looks so good and you would never know.

JOE: That’s incredible.

JOHN: I give Ben credit for that because it looks really good.

JOE: And again, you could have just had like a lifeless Gobo and we wouldn’t have noticed. It would have been fine.

JOHN: Little details.

JOE: But you continue to push the possibilities of what you can do and to go the extra mile is so very much appreciated. And really it does come across.

JOHN: That’s the Jim Henson way. Right?

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: He didn’t have to have a bunch of puppets riding bikes. Or you didn’t have to have a Miss Piggy in a water ballet. But why not, if you can.

JOE: Absolutely. So this is where we get the next song of the episode. It’s called “The Hope We Build Together.” And we’re seeing the whole plan come into action as the Doozers tie a rope around the Fraggle horn and Junior’s bringing it up with a fishing pole. And I love that all the Fraggles are wearing Boobers socks.

JOHN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

JOE: The aforementioned socks. And they’ve got them on their heads on their noses. They’re wearing them as scarves. They’re wearing them on their baloobiuses. And Pogey has two of them that are puppets.

HALLE: Yay!

JOE: Puppets on Fraggle Rock? I don’t think it will work.

JOHN: Oh, you can imagine how many jokes we made about that. And actually there’s a wonderful video, and I’m sure you’ve seen behind the scenes video, of Pogey. The brilliant Kanja Chen who is Pogey, talking, having this whole conversation basically talking about how Pogey is in love with Red essentially. And then Karen [Prell] comes over with Red and you think that she’s going to completely like make fun of them. But then she ends up being like, “You’re awesome!”

And it’s so sweet and Fraggly, and heartwarming and hilarious. Kanja’s reactions with Pogey there are just brilliant.

HALLE: We always have to have in our shows, one nod to the characters doing puppets.

JOHN: Being puppets. [laughs]

HALLE: Done it in every single show.

JOHN: You’re right.

HALLE: Dark Crystal, Sid, Dinosaur Train, Fraggles.

JOE: Oh my god. Yes. The Dark Crystal: the Age of Resistance thing where they do the puppet show. God, is that great.

HALLE: The best.

JOE: Yes. I love that that’s a tradition. Yeah, keep that going.

HALLE: It’s a tradition.

JOE: Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. So during this song, Pa Gorg sings a line with Ma. Is this the only time he sings in this series?

JOHN: The only other time I can think of, when you just said that, the only other time that popped in my brain is in “The Rock Goes On” in the first episode.

JOE: Oh, sure.

JOHN: So, it’s almost like when he lets those moments of hope come through, he can belt something out, but yeah. I think it was exciting for Frank Meschkuleit, who performs Pa now, to do that too because he had so much fun singing as Pa.

JOE: Oh, I’m sure.

JOHN: (singing in deeper voice) The hope we build together. (in normal voice) Oh, it’s so funny.

JOE: Alright. Well, season three, we gotta give the gorgs more singing lines.

JOHN: Oh, yeah for sure.

JOE: Yeah, they’re lacking here in their music.

JOHN: Yeah, come on.

HALLE: Ma had her big ballad.

JOHN: Oh my gosh. “Be a Queen.” The greatest ever.

JOE: Yeah.

HALLE: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah, wonderful. Oh, I mean just Aymee Garcia getting to sing with Aymee Garcia. It’s great. You can’t beat it.

JOHN: Come on. Go see her on tour as Madam Morrible in Wicked. She’s on tour.

HALLE: Aymee with Aymee.

JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.

JOE: And we also see Lanford and how his roots are kind of stretching down into the soil and they come back up through Doc’s garden. And her plant Sprocket, the plant Sprocket, not the dog Sprocket, kind of splits in two and gives her this idea for this double turbine that she’s going to use for her class project. And we get to hear Lilli Cooper sing again. So that’s also really nice to hear.

JOHN: Thank god. Yeah.

JOE: Any opportunity to get Lilli Cooper to sing, you gotta take it.

JOHN: Come on. Yeah, we talked a lot about that because in the Pogey episode it made a lot of sense for her to sing because that’s what she’s talking about. And it felt less fantastical. And we kind of debated here. We’re like, oh is it breaking that world thing of like Doc singing. But then we’re like, you know what? She’s so caught up in the hope and she’s so caught up in the magic of Fraggle too. And obviously there is that physical connection with Lanford’s roots, which is a whole other canon thing. But also we bought that the magic of Fraggle Rock kind of pours into her a little bit too. And it was, just like you said, a great reason to have Lilli Cooper sing. So who cares?

JOE: Well, and just to echo what you just said, I mean there’s going to be a moment later in this episode where she finds Traveling Matt’s backpack. And like we really are starting to put these two worlds closer and closer together. So I mean, there’s nothing to say that this magical musical fraggley thing isn’t actually leaking into her world.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: I’ll buy it.

JOHN: I think someone said andI can’t remember. It might’ve been Halle. I can’t remember who, it was either the writers’ room or one of our production meetings, when we were debating about this. And someone was finally like, “Yeah. Hey, also Sprocket dresses up in human clothes.”

HALLE: That was me.

JOHN: I think it was you. And it was like, “Oh yeah.” Like there are some. We definitely break those rules when it’s convenient. So yeah.

HALLE: The dog for sure.

JOE: [laughs] But yeah, so while Doc is setting up her new and improved turbine, Traveling Matt returns. And Sprocket goes nuts. He grabs Matt’s backpack and Matt goes into the rock. Doc turns on the fans and he goes flying through the rock. Through Fraggle Rock, through the tube, out into the Gorgs’ garden. He grabs onto the Fraggle horn. It flips around backward. 

There’s also, first of all there’s so much great stuff happening here, but my favorite shot is the one of Matt flying toward the camera with his eyes big.

[Crosstalk]

JOHN: Mommy! Mommy! Yes.

JOE: Hysterical. Hysterical. Did you have any other notes or observations about how this whole sequence kind of came together?

JOHN: Oh my gosh.

HALLE: I was really worried. I mean it was very ambitious.

JOHN: Yes. That’s right.

HALLE: I was going to say, personally, I think the way it turned out is fantastic, but in the back of my head I just had to let go and trust. I’m just trusting people smarter than me know how to make this happen because it was big.

JOHN: It was a lot of pieces. Well, it was so many pieces and it was, again, like I have a sense memory of like, staring at the page, writing out the montage of events and being like, “Oh, this is going to get cut somehow.”

And then it was like, we get to the days of shooting and I was like, “Oh my god. We’re shooting this.” But no, it was just a lot of really thoughtful storyboarding and planning on J.J.’s part and on the production teams’ part. And really, the hardest part was all the different scales. Because the tubes are built in gorg scale. The tubes are built in Fraggle Rock and Fraggle scale. It was really figuring out what can be shot live? What can’t be? When do we have to shrink Matt down on blue screen? When can we use practical Matt? When can’t we? So it was really just so many different minds coming together to make it happen.

JOE: Yeah. It looks great. And it’s such a short sequence too.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: If something had gone wrong, we wouldn’t have ever noticed just because it goes by so fast.

JOHN: My favorite shot actually that everyone thinks was animated but it wasn’t, is that shot where he comes out of the tube in the garden and kinda does this arc, curve thing. And that’s pretty much Matt in front of blue screen with a little bit of post help. I mean, it’s such a simple effect but it looks so good, so beautiful. The way that Frank and his team puppeteered it, it just  looks so great.

JOE: Amazing. I love that. But all this makes the turbine work finally. And Red congratulates Pogey for knowing that the Fraggle horn needed to work backward as we saw at the beginning of the episode. And Pogey says, “Oh sure when air moves through a small passage, it just gets constricted and therefore moves with greater velocity.”

That is hysterical. First of all, that Pogey is smart enough to know all that science-y stuff that I couldn’t have said in a million years.

JOHN: They’re very smart. Yeah.

HALLE: They are.

JOE: But also Pogey’s saying it through the puppets.

JOHN: Yep.

[Halle and Joe laugh]

JOHN: Which is one of those moments of like, there’s another side of Pogey that comes out in this episode. Right? We know that Pogey is incredibly forward thinking and in touch with who they are and their authentic stuff from the Pogey episode. But like, also Pogey’s brilliant.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: Like, super brilliant and no one really knows it. And I think it’s something to explore down the line, of if you are ever stuck in a logical jam, Pogey’s your person.

JOE: I also wonder if the puppets have anything to do with it. I’ve been watching a lot of Soap lately, the old sitcom. And there’s the puppet.

HALLE: Love it.

JOE: It’s a great show.

HALLE: The best.

JOE: But there’s the ventriloquist character. And he’s got Bob, his ventriloquist dummy. And it really seems like a lot of the time there are two different people who both, like they don’t actually share a brain. So is it possible that maybe Pogey’s like, “Look, I didn’t know this.”

JOHN: Maybe.

JOE: “But this guy on my left hand, they knew it.”

HALLE: Maybe helped them access it.

JOE: Right.

JOHN: I feel like Pogey in season three and beyond, I just love the idea of the puppets coming back. Pogey talking through puppets.

HALLE: Yeah, let’s bring them back.

JOHN: Yeah. I think so. I think that Pogey, they would use that, use those puppets all the time.

JOE: Bring them back for the Pogey/Little Rago crossover episode that I’ve been asking for all year.

[John and Halle laugh]

JOE: The spinoff episode I should say.

JOHN: Oh Little Rago, yes.

JOE: I want it. I want it so bad. So anyway, everyone celebrates. Everything worked. The Architect tells Cotterpin about the time that he invented something better than the monorail. It uses zero rails. Mokey is proud of Lanford and then accuses him of not keeping up with brushing his teeth. Also hysterical. And Boober’s just excited about all of the socks he gets to wash.

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: Banner day for Boober.

JOHN: And that moment when Boober throws the socks, it looks so simple but it was insane. I was like, “This is a perfect example of, again, what it takes to do a puppet shot.” A human would grab a pile. Throw socks up in the air. Call it a day. But because you can’t really do that. We had an air cannon.

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: They shoved like 80 socks in this air cannon. And it was like, we had to do a test of it. We all had to wear ear plugs. We had to wear projectile glasses. It was crazy. I was like, “What are we doing?” But it was like, “Well, it’s the finale.”

JOE: Wow. Wow. How many TV shows do you think have had an air cannon full of socks go off?

JOHN: Maybe like America’s Got Talent.

HALLE: Three? Maybe three.

JOHN: Solid Gold.

JOE: Actually, I think there’s an episode of Soap where they do it.

JOHN: Probably, yeah.

JOE: Yeah. [laughs]

HALLE: I can talk about Soap with you forever, by the way.

JOE: We should do a Soap podcast.

[Crosstalk]

HALLE: We’ll have a whole episode.

JOE: Oh my god. Absolutely. I’m down.

HALLE: Especially when he tries to puppeteer the grapefruit. Because he’s lost Bob.

JOE: I just watched that one. I just saw that a couple days ago. Great.

JOHN: I need to watch this. Oh my gosh.

JOE: Great. Also Jay Johnson, the puppeteer, I’m going to get off topic for a second, the puppeteer from that, I saw his one man show a few years back. Brilliant. One of the best things I’ve ever seen on stage.

HALLE: Really?

JOE: Yeah.

HALLE: Oh my god. I love it.

JOE: Absolutely fantastic. He’s just doing his ventriloquist act with all different characters, telling his life story. Wonderful show. I don’t know if he’s still doing it.

JOHN: There you go.

JOE: But if you ever see that he’s coming to town, yeah, go see him.

HALLE: I’m going.

JOHN: Halle, it’s a date. We’re going.

HALLE: Okay.

JOE: So we see the roots underneath Lanford are glowing and we kind of pan out a little bit and we see all these little like worms and bugs and things. Which, like I said at the top of this episode…

JOHN: All puppets. All puppets. Yeah.

JOE: Yeah, I would assume so that you didn’t just get real worms in there. Is this like a top-down shot, or are you somehow puppeteering it like, vertically?

JOHN: We shot it…I think we shot it vertically.

HALLE: I think it was vertical.

JOHN: I think so. Oh, you know what? It might have been top down because I think that was real cork soil that they put on top of there. So it actually might have been straight down to make it look like it was vertical. I don’t remember.

HALLE: I don’t remember either. Oh no.

JOE: It’s just interesting to see creatures in Fraggle Rock that don’t have that Muppety face.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: You know, like you would expect. Oh, we have worms. Well, they’ve got little mouths and big bug eyes and whatever. But no, they’re just like real worms and real bugs.

JOHN: Yeah, we talked about that because we were like, well, they’re not in Fraggle Rock proper, they’re in the gorgs’ garden soil. So are they different? And then it became kind of like, for that moment it felt like it’s really more about the idea of showing, that life goes on. There’s more even beyond the surface.

JOE: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, as we said, Sprocket has buried Matt’s backpack and Doc finds it. I am so excited to find out what happens. I really hope we get closure on that because we really didn’t even get that on the old show until the series finale when the Fraggle stuff starts really leaking into the Fraggle world. Excuse me, the human world. With the exception of, like, now I’m remembering there’s an episode where Doc finds a Doozer helmet.

JOHN: Yeah. That’s right.

JOE: And thinks it’s a ring. Puts it on his finger. But yeah, either way, it’s still rare and exciting that stuff like that can happen here.

JOHN: Yeah, we had fun having that moment of like, okay, what, how do we, where do we take this next?

JOE: Right. Yeah.

JOHN: We’ll see!

JOE: Yeah. And speaking of where are we taking things next? Our last scene here is Pa and Ma. He’s like, oh, we had a happy ending. And she says to him, “Well, it’s also a happy beginning.” Wink, wink. He doesn’t get it. She’s knitting a pair of socks and he says, “Oh, those are too small for me. They’re too small for Junior.” It’s like, they’re for a baby Gorg. He still doesn’t get it. [laughs] And Ma confirms, yeah, there’s a baby coming.

And he has a great faint. Frank, and Andy Hayward, you know, teaming up on this puppet. The way that he just shoots straight up and the eyes go wide and then he just falls straight back is a great television faint.

[Halle laughs]

JOHN: [laughs] It’s so good.

JOE: Yep. And then Junior realizes he’s gonna be a big brother and he also faints. And that’s where we end season two. I love that. But I have so many questions about what this could mean, but I don’t wanna ask them because I know that you’re thinking about it in case there’s gonna be a season three. So I’d rather see that on TV.

HALLE: Of course.

JOHN: Well, I will say this. I will say that I am proud to say the Ma being pregnant moment was my idea.

JOE: Wonderful.

JOHN: And I was petrified to pitch it to the room because I was like, for two reasons. One is I was like, what if everyone hates this idea? But also, ’cause I always think everyone’s gonna hate my ideas. But also, I was like, this is a major, major canon shifter for the show. Right?

And I remember like pitch, and I was like, well, what if? And then everyone loved it. And I was like, okay, we’re gonna do this. And I remember like, the day before this season dropped, I was like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. Is this where all the Fraggle fans revolt and hate me forever?” 

Because I was like, it is such a big change, you know? Because maybe they’re not, well, now they literally won’t be the last of their kind, right? So there’s a big shift that happened there, but I also just thought it was the most magical way to end the second season. And the message, again to go back to what Halle always preaches, is like, I mean this gets very Whitney Houston, but the children are our future.

And it’s true. And they’re the ones who, they’re gonna solve the problems. They’re the ones who are going to be the caretakers. And so that next generation is what’s to be hopeful about and what’s to be hopeful for. So I just love it. I’m so glad that we were inspired by that. But yeah, it was a fun like top little secret that we had for a year of working on this.

HALLE: It’s a little teeny also lure for Apple, right? Like, come on.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Yep. Yep.

HALLE: Come on. Let us have our baby gorg.

JOE: Don’t you wanna see what happens, Apple?

JOHN: Exactly.

JOE: Come on.

HALLE: Yeah.

JOHN: We had that little cliffhanger end of season one with the video tape and the camera down in Fraggle Rock. So I think people love that too. Like, you know, you wanna get people excited to keep watching.

JOE: Exactly, yeah. So two questions. Number one, do you know what’s gonna happen? Like, I mean, have you broken that, at least that part of the story? And second question is, if for some reason we don’t get a season three, will there still be some way that you can tell us or reveal the story in some other media?

JOHN: I’ll just say that we absolutely have a plan for it. And we have an idea of what we wanna do with the story and how this all plays out and how it affects everybody. And how that comes to be is a different conversation. But I think the creative side of it is thought out. Yes, for sure.

JOE: Great, great. Well, fingers crossed that we get to see it on our screens.

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: Because I’ve been thinking about it ever since it aired originally and just it’s frustrating. I’m sure it’s frustrating for you as well, but it’s also frustrating for me.

JOHN: I think that the potential, what we’re really excited about, is the potential of how it will change and affect everything. ‘Cause when you have a baby, it changes everything. It really does. It changes the family structure, it changes your life, your physical living. It changes everything, how your pets react, everything, everything changes.

And so, I think that it’s an interesting thing when you have these three interconnected worlds. Four interconnected worlds, how that will change things. I think it’s exciting and how Pa will react and how Junior will react and how Ma reacts. And does the Trash Heap babysit? I don’t know, but there’s just a lot of opportunities there to play with.

[Halle laughs]

JOE: I am actually picturing the Fraggles babysitting. Like just kind of little Fraggles and one giant baby how do they deal with this.

JOHN: Yeah, gorg baby’s not very clean.

HALLE: The doozers engineering where do the diapies go?

JOHN: [laughs] True compost, yeah.

JOE: [laughs] Right, yes.

JOHN: Marjory’s like, “Oh, l bring it over here. That smell delicious.” Yeah.

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: So many possibilities.

JOE: So at the end of every episode of this podcast in this season, we’ve been asking the same question to all of our guests, which has been how do you plan to make the world a little Fragglier? I’m not gonna ask you that right now, ’cause Johnny, we’ve asked you that a couple times already and it’s just a very big question. But also I’m gonna answer it for you, which is the way to make the world a little more Fragglier is for season three renewal on Apple TV.

JOHN: Yes.

HALLE: Yeah.

JOE: So my question to you is, is there anything that the fans can do to help?

JOHN: Yes. I mean, we say it a lot, but it’s true, is that people like the original series actually. When people find Fraggle Rock, they fall fast in love with it and passionate about it. It’s getting people to find it. So we live in a world where there’s a million streamers and there’s a million hours of content and there’s a lot of different shows for kids and families out there. So tell everybody you know about it.

Don’t say, do you know Fraggle Rock? Say, do you know Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock is streaming on Apple TV+ right now when it’s brand new? These are not the old episodes, these are brand new episodes that are made for today’s kids and families.

HALLE: I think that’s right. I can’t tell you how many people I talk to about the series and I say, oh, they ask what you’re working on and you know, Fraggle Rock, and they actually think I worked on the original.

JOHN: Yep.

HALLE: And they’re like, oh, I loved Fraggle Rock. And I’m like, wait, you don’t know, the new Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock on Apple TV+, they don’t know, but the minute they hear it, they say, I’m gonna go get it.

JOHN: Yeah. Same.

HALLE: I gotta watch it. So I think it’s about, of course, spreading the word, but also if you have an idea of someone that has a bigger platform or brand or a company and you’re like, you just gotta check this out and send the message out. Yes, more on Apple TV+, of course, but just like you all were both talking about just more fraggle in every space, whether it’s the live show. Tell them about the live show. Go to the live show.

JOHN: Mmhmm.

HALLE: Because the live show is gonna publicize the series on an Apple TV+. And I actually think that’s a very meaningful…Put together field trips with your schools and preschools and high schools to go and see the production together. I can’t tell you how many emails I’ve gotten about different groups trying to organize to go see Wicked.

JOHN: Yeah.

HALLE: So I’m like, do it for Fraggle Live.

JOE: Yeah.

HALLE: Make it the next live event Wicked. So that would be incredible.

JOHN: Yeah, but you’re right. And they all kind of come around to the same thing, which is just like making people aware of it and knowing that it’s there and it’s new. And one of those heartwarming things, I’ll just say really quickly, is, you know, my niece had a baby and he’s like six months old, I think at this point. And you know, which is much younger than we ever designed Fraggle Rock. But it’s so funny, he’s obsessed with it. Like obsessed with it. And like, she’ll send me videos of him standing in his crib just staring at the screen and then dancing when the music comes on. Like, he’s a Sprocket, he’s in love with Sprocket.

So, you know, it’s a show that like, it really does appeal to all ages. And I get letters all the time from fans who are discovering it for the first time. Not even grew up with it in the 80s. Like they missed it in the 80s and they’re discovering it for the first time and they’re like in their 60s. And they’re like, oh my God, this show was, I love this show.

So I really do think that it’s still got that power. And it’s just getting people to be more aware of it.

JOE: And I’m gonna add one thing to your request of just telling people that the show exists is, when I tell people, oh, there’s a new Fraggle Rock, a lot of times their reaction is…Oh. Because they know that when shows are brought back, they’re not quite as good or it’s like a watered down version or whatever it is. And I have to always say, no, no, no, it’s great. It is a great show.

JOHN: Thank you.

JOE: It is very respectful of the original. It’s a great follow up to the show that we already love. If you have that moment of like, oh, Fraggle Rock. I liked that show. It’s like, then you’re gonna like Back to the Rock. You just gotta watch it.

So yeah, so I think the lesson here is, if you wanna make the world a little Fragglier, get out there. Tell everyone you know to watch the show. And then, hey, there’s also a companion podcast that you can listen to right here on ToughPigs. [laughs]

JOHN: That’s right.

HALLE: Yeah! Exactly.

JOHN: I’ll also say, I don’t know when this is gonna air, but I’ll also say this, that we also are so lucky to have the first season put out on DVD with a lot of great extras and stuff like that.

JOE: Yes.

JOHN: Which is so rare in our digital age. Right? That there’s a DVD. And that’s another thing that for people who don’t know about the show, it’s a great gift. It’s a great introduction. It’s physical, so it’s there in front of them. There’s extra stuff on there. Like, I’m really not just doing this to promote the DVD, I promise. I’m actually saying, I think we live in a world where it’s easy to get lost, and it’s easy to forget about things. But when you have that physical thing in front of you, like, you said at the beginning about the dolls, right? It’s a real thing. It’s here. It’s in front of me. It exists, you know?

HALLE: Then we have Johnny and Karen’s commentary.

JOHN: Yes, which we cry on it. We tell funny stories. Karen and I are exactly as you hear on the commentary. It takes three seconds for us to start getting teary-eyed about something. But we had a blast doing it. And actually, we recorded it, fun fact, while we were doing Comic Con.

JOE: Oh!

JOHN: We were down in Atlanta and filmed it–er recorded it down there. So, we were in the midst of like, the Fraggle magic of meeting all the fans and stuff like that, so we were very sentimental and very in that space.

JOE: Oh, that’s great. Yeah, no, I’m so excited for that DVD set. Like you said, it’s rare to get that at all from any project.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: And for Fraggle Rock to be releasing it, I’ll be honest, I didn’t think that was real when the news dropped. I thought we were being punked.

JOHN: I saw you post about that.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: I wanted to reach out to be like, “Joe, it’s real.” But I couldn’t do that yet, but I wanted to do it.

JOE: [laughs] Next time drop me a line.

JOHN: It’s like, “Don’t doubt us, Joe!” [laughs]

JOE: I don’t wanna be that guy who’s like,”Everybody, good news!”

JOHN: No, of course.

JOE: And then they tell me, “No, man, you fell for it.”

HALLE: Womp, womp.

JOHN: Yeah, of course. You’re like, it will be confirmed before I say anything, darn it.

JOE: Exactly, we are professional journalists.

JOHN: [laughs] That’s right.

JOE: We’ve got real news over here. It’s just Muppet news, that’s all. [laughs]

Well, Halle Stanford, John Tartaglia, thank you both so much for being here. And more importantly, thank you so much for all that you did to bring Back to the Rock to life. I truly, truly love this show. I would not be doing this whole podcast if I didn’t. And I’ll be very sad if this is the end of this podcast. So you all need to make more Back to the Rock, so I can do another season of Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock.

JOHN: Deal.

JOE: [laughs] Great.

HALLE: Yeah, deal. And also, no one can see it, but I’ve been smiling the whole time watching these two talking. You are such a fan and filled with so much joy. And it’s such a pleasure to just hear you, kvell about Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. It’s really touching.

JOE: Yes. Kvelling back and forth for hours on end about this show.

HALLE: Yeah.

JOHN: And I’ll give you guys credit for the fact that you guys have been such fans and supporters of the show. But also like the community that you’ve created with the Discord, the ToughPigs Discord, because I sometimes drop in there. And it makes my heart so happy to see so many people, so passionate about the show. And just, you know, that you guys are noticing all the little Easter eggs and all the little details and heart put into it.

And, you know, like Halle was mentioning her husband Ian is our set dec. And all the little nods that they put in the background that just everyone’s doing because they care about the show, the fact that everyone is noticing it and appreciates it means the world to us. So thanks to all of you.

JOE: Of course, well, look, I mean, you all make it easy to have something that we can build a community around. You know, this is something that it’s nice. It’s joyful. It’s hopeful, as we’ve discussed in this episode. And it’s something that we want to celebrate. You know, we’re no longer saying, “Remember, Fraggle Rock? I kind of think that there was something that we haven’t talked about yet with that old show.”

It’s like, no, there’s so much new stuff that we can all just celebrate as a group. And that’s wonderful. I love being a part of that. And again, like that’s a reflection of the production that you all have put together.

JOHN: Thank you.

HALLE: Thank you. Yaaay!

JOHN: Yay!

JOE: Well, thanks again for being here and more Fraggle fun soon, I’m sure.

JOHN: Yay, more Fraggle Fun.

HALLE: Yay, group hug.

JOHN: (in voice of Architect Doozer) Here come the babies!

[All laugh]

[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]

JOE: Fraggle Talk: the unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast is brought to you by ToughPigs.com. Produced, written and hosted by Joe Hennes. Fraggle Talk art by Dave Hulteen Jr. Fraggle Rock mark and logo, characters and elements are trademarks of the Jim Henson Company. All rights reserved. Transcripts provided by Katilyn Miller.

Fraggle Rock theme song, written by Philip Balsam and Dennis Lee, is used with permission. Special thanks to The Jim Henson company, Apple TV+ and the entire Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock family.

Be sure to follow ToughPigs @ToughPigs on all social media platforms, including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. And please consider supporting us on patreon or by buying merchandise on Teepublic.

For more Fraggle podcast fun, listen to Fraggle Talk: Classic on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time, down at Fraggle Talk.

[Music ends]