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Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – Episode 25: Letting Go
[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]
JOE HENNES: Hello and welcome to Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock, the unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast brought to you by ToughPigs.com. This is the podcast where we cover Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock episode by episode, along with the talented producers, performers, writers, and builders who helped put it all together. I’m your host, Silly Creature Joe Hennes.
Today we are talking about the penultimate episode of season two, “Letting Go,” in which Mokey prepares to say goodbye to Lanford while we prepare for the inevitable end of this podcast season. Don’t worry everybody, we’re gonna have one more episode, so don’t say goodbye just yet.
And two things we are not letting go of our very special guests. First up is the brilliant and hilarious puppeteer, who brings Mokey Fraggle, Cotterpin Doozer and the Storyteller to life. It’s Donna Kimball. Hello, Donna.
DONNA KIMBALL: Hello, Joe. Hi everyone.
JOE: Hello. So good to have you back on the podcast.
DONNA: I’m delighted to be here.
JOE: Wonderful. Our second guest, who I hope is also delighted to be here, is the incredibly talented puppeteer, who brings Wembley Fraggle to life. It is Jordan Lockhart. Hi, Jordan.
JORDAN LOCKHART: Thank you. Hello. Lovely to see you again.
JOE: Likewise. I am so excited to have both of you here to talk about this episode, and also just so cool to have two of the Fraggle 5 in this Zoom room right now doing this interview together.
DONNA: I’m excited to be here with Jordy.
JORDAN: (in pinched voice) I’m excited to be here with Donners. [laughs]
JOE: Aww. Adorable. So I know in this episode we’re about to talk about, there’s not a whole lot of Mokey and Wembley interacting together, so I’d love to hear a little bit more from each of you, just like in the series as a whole, how do you two define the relationship between Mokey and Wembley?
DONNA: Hmm. Well, it’s impossible to not have a soft spot for Wembley, because, and Jordan too. So I loved, like in the first episode where Mokey is really comforting Wembley after he got so very scared. So, I think Jordy is like our kid brother kind of on set between, certainly within the 13 of us. I think that that’s true. Or at least that’s how I feel, but I don’t think I’m alone there.
But, yeah. I love the relationship. It’s really sweet. And, yeah, I love the silliness of Jordan, and of course, Mokey loves the silliness of Wembley.
[Crosstalk]
JOE: Jordan, do you see yourself as like the younger sibling on set? Does that ring true for you?
JORDAN: (in normal voice) For sure, for sure. I really do feel that Wembley’s relationship with the characters mirrors my relationship with my colleagues, and especially the five. Yeah, it’s funny you say that, Donna. I mean, that’s it exactly, especially the sense of admiration that Wembley has for everybody. But also that need for protection. You know what I mean?
More than a need, it’s just that protection that comes unconditionally. And that love, and it’s such a beautiful thing in the show, and I just see that reflected in our relationship. Yeah, for me, that’s a big one. It’s that big sister thing, which I know there’s always a little bit of tension when that comes up.
Well, Mokey’s not really a maternal figure. She’s so much more than that. But I think for me and for the character, it’s very much that relationship of like, (In panicked Wembley voice) “Hold me, hold me!”
[Jordan and Donna laugh]
JORDAN: Come here, come here! This is insane!
DONNA: (in high-pitched voice) I know! We’ll get through it together!
JOE: What you just said, it actually makes me think a lot about the original Fraggle Rock series, and in that one I felt like the relationship between the two characters was more about Wembley is so unsure himself, and he is such a little kid compared to the other Fraggle 5. He describes himself as a wimp, I think, a lot in the series. And Mokey is this maternal figure. She is like the one who’s going to grab him for a big hug, whether he wants it or not. And just kind of take his hand and lead him to wherever he needs to go.
But for both of you, you’ve taken the characters in such a different direction for Back to the Rock, in a really natural direction, that it definitely keeps some of the elements from the original, but Wembley is not quite as…you know, weak-spined in Back to the Rock. And Mokey definitely is not nearly as, you said maternal, but I think it’s more about like that age, that maturity level that she had on the original series. And now she’s a little bit more, you know, one of the gang than she was before.
DONNA: (in normal voice) Mmhmm. Yeah.
JOE: So do you feel like that also kind of putting yourselves into the characters has helped to kind of drive their relationship to each other?
DONNA: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think it’s impossible not to do that. Yeah, I think it’s always tough inheriting a character. You have to be true to some aspects of the original, and yet you have to evolve the character. That’s also part of your job. And it’s, you know, it’s a delicate balance between the two. And, but how wonderful to do it with other people. And then you find that your own character can grow in surprising ways and evolve in ways that you didn’t anticipate.
So yeah, kind of less maternal, more big sister. I don’t know. I mean, I think I’ve said this before, that Kathy Mullen is a touchy person and I am as well. So I think Mokey has certainly retained that and is protective. But yes, is very silly and therefore one of the gang, I think. My silliness keeps me [laughs] keeps me as more of one of the gang.
I don’t know. I’m just riffing here. Thoughts, Jordy?
JOE: Yeah, that’s all right. That’s all that podcasts are is just riffing.
JORDAN: (in normal voice) No, you nailed it. And also that zaniness that comes through. I mean, nobody gets to see the Donna that we see between scenes. But it comes through. You know.
DONNA: Elaborate.
JORDAN: Well, you’re always doing voices. You totally know how to jump in on a gag. Like, I mean, it’s just, it’s all there. And it’s starting to come through in Mokey. And she’s so much more vibrant than she ever was before. And that’s because of you.
DONNA: Yeah. Well, thanks. Yeah, I’m a… I’m a… yeah. Well, I know I’ve said this before, that Jordan is our prankster, our number one prankster on set. And was from the very, very beginning. There were cut outs of Dave Goelz’s face.
JORDAN: Oh my God. Right.
DONNA: Left them everywhere. Left them on…You’d go and get some water and come back and there’d be one on your chair. They were everywhere. I put it on my iPhone cover.
JORDAN: Dave Goelz’d.
DONNA: Got Goelz’d. I was like, who’s doing this?
JOE: That’s great. Especially with Dave because he was apparently such a prankster back in the day. I assume he still is and would be if he was able to be on set with all of you. Nice that you’re keeping that trend alive.
JORDAN: Yeah. He’s in spirit there.
JOE: For him. Not for everyone else. Yeah. I love that. So on this episode’s topic of letting go, I appreciate that the way that the episode, we’ll talk about this later, but the episode isn’t saying that letting go means saying goodbye. It’s nothing final. It’s just a way to change and adapt and kind of maybe sometimes just put something aside for now.
So as we’re recording this episode, we still don’t know whether or not Back to the Rock is being renewed for a third season. So it must be difficult for the two of you that there was a point in which you were done filming season two and you had to let go not knowing the future of the show; not knowing if you’re going to be coming back to it, or if so, in what form you’re coming back to Fraggle Rock.
So does that continue to be really difficult to kind of have this extended sense of letting go to Fraggle Rock?
JORDAN: Donna, do you find that over time you just get used… you just find a way to…what’s a good word? Just sort of adapt to the constant changing. You just go, “Okay, here comes that period of potential pain. Now I need to fill it.” You know?
DONNA: Yes. And where you get used to the uncertainty, where you’re just sort of riding this wave of uncertainty to hear yes will of course be great, but to hear no, that’s a finality. And truthfully, neither Jordan and I know and no one knows yet.
JORDAN: That’s what she thinks. [Laughs maniacally] Just kidding.
DONNA: What?
JOE: You heard it here first on the podcast. Big news.
DONNA: Texting you right now.
JORDAN: We just totally zone out of the…sorry. Go ahead.
[Joe and Donna laugh]
DONNA: For me it’s still okay because we don’t know. If we hear a no, that’ll be another, another, that’ll be a blow, but it’ll be another grieving process really. It was wonderful to go to things like DragonCon and be together and put our Fraggles on and wave at kids and stuff. That was wonderful. So hopefully we will be doing that. And we get to, they’re gearing up for the Fraggle Rock live tour. And we’ve got some recording to do for that which is super exciting.
So I think we’ll always be Fraggles.
JORDAN: Mmhmm. And we’re so close.
DONNA: We just don’t know if we’re shooting the series. Sorry?
JORDAN: Yeah. Well, very little changes aside from, okay, we’re not on set. We don’t have the puppets. But we all speak so often and we’ve got a group. There’s always stuff going on there, online. And so it’s just, it feels like maybe it’s not the full magic, but it’s half the magic.
And theres periods like this, where it’s neither yay nor nay. It kind of feels like a period for gratitude. Just to lean into gratitude and just feel really good about that. And the gratitude will continue if the show is, in fact, over.
DONNA: Yeah.
JORDAN: You know, and that’s just how I feel about it. It’s like, of course your heart sinks into your stomach, but at the same time it’s like, wow, that happened. And we are all so much stronger as performers and as people for the experience. And that’s like a drug and itself just unpacking that. So it’s a huge gift going forward. That’s just how I approach it. Yeah.
DONNA: Mmhmm.
JOE: That is such a mature way to think about it.
JORDAN: Oh shoot. That should’ve been yours, Donna. That should’ve been Mokey’s. [laughs]
[Donna laughs]
JOE: For me, I’m the one who’s sort of like Mokey clinging to that pot being like, “No, no, no. No, we’re not ready for this yet. We need to hold on to this as long as we can.” But I’m not in the middle of it like you two. So I can get away with that. I can get away with being the crazy person online who’s, you know, saying, “No, no. This is something that the world needs. That means we need to have it. There’s no no.”
Just give us more Fraggle Rock, please. Yeah.
DONNA: Yeah. Yeah, we feel that way too. There are just so many factors that go into whether a show gets picked up. Just lots and lots of factors. And most of them monetary, which is, feels so antithetical to what we’re doing. But, it’s…
JOE: Mmhmm. Yep.
JORDAN: Oh, just say it, it’s gross. Come on.
DONNA: It’s kind of gross. Algorithms.
JORDAN: When you hold it up against Fraggle Rock, it is so gross, but anyway, go ahead.
DONNA: Yeah, it’s pretty gross. It’s pretty gross. But you know, what do you do? It’s show business. It’s not show art. It’s not show Fraggle. It’s show business.
JOE: Oh, but what if it was show Fraggle?
DONNA: Wouldn’t that be awesome?
JOE: Come on. Come on.
JORDAN: (in voice of Wembley) Come on.
JOE: It’d be the best. Well, speaking of show Fraggle, we have a whole show of Fraggles to talk about here in this episode. So let’s jump into it. This episode begins with Doc and Sprocket. They’re playing fetch. Sprocket is so good at it, Doc thinks for a moment that he might be able to go pro, which I also want to see. I wanna see like the Olympics of fetch.
That must be a thing. Maybe not the Olympics, but like people who are really good at playing fetch with their dogs and they do it in like a stadium or something. That sounds… I don’t think I’m making that up.
DONNA: I’d go see that.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Yeah.
JOE: Put that on ESPN2 or something. Like bury it at like 3 a.m. I’d still watch it. So Sprocket while playing fetch, he brings back a pamphlet for doggy day camp. And this is great where he has a dream sequence where he and Doc are in canoes fishing for bones. It’s great.
Jordan, you worked on these Doc and Sprocket bits. Were you like below this canoe in the scene?
JORDAN: Johnny [Tartaglia] and I were both crammed inside the canoe.
JOE: Oh, there wasn’t a hole at the bottom? You were just in a canoe?
JORDAN: No, sir. No, sir.
[Joe laughs]
JORDAN: Yeah, that was a fun couple of hours. Cause you know…
JOE: Amazing.
JORDAN: The way he and I are together. So you can imagine that in a reaaaaaally tight space. And poor Lilli [Cooper] as usual, enduring our nonsense. That was good fun.
JOE: I love this for you. Sprocket gives Doc those PDEs, those puppy dog eyes. And she gives in and lets him go to doggy day camp as if day camp was not insanely expensive. Like as we know, it’s not like, oh, we just honestly, she’s a student and she’s working as a waiter and part-time to pay the bills. It’s like, yeah, sure. I’ll just pay thousands of dollars to let my dog go to camp.
DONNA: Yeah, I know how much those camps cost. I’m a mom. I remember.
JOE: Yeah. Yeah. As an adult now, my parents have been telling me about like, “You know what we had to do to make sure that we could afford camp for you?” And I’m like, I didn’t know. I never thought about it as a kid. You’re not supposed to think about it as a kid. Now it’s like, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for that. Did either of you go to camp when you were young? Were you camp people?
JORDAN: Oh, yes.
DONNA: No.
JOE: What kind of camp did you go to Jordan?
JORDAN: I went to a few of those away camps. You know, for me, I went to a camp and a whole other province, deep in the woods. Cabins, canoeing, that whole deal. It was formative. It was good. It was really good for me socially because I was not the most social kid. I was happy to be inside with my toys and all that stuff.
My poor parents were always like, “Get outside!” And I really fell in love with nature during that period. And so, yeah, happy, nostalgic memories.
JOE: Oh, that’s nice. I love that for you.
DONNA: Yeah. I did not really go to camp. Maybe a couple of times, but I was very socially awkward and I did not care for being around people I didn’t know. I just would fade into the wallpaper. This was the child I was. This is…yes, very, this is my formative years. Explains a lot. But yeah, not so much. I was just close with my brother and sister and we just kind of hung out all the time.
But as a mom, I did. Because I have an only child. I did do send off a lot of summer camps. It’s kind of, it’s more of a thing now, I think. I think more kids now go to do summer campy type things.
JOE: So you’ve had to do the thing where you like put your kid on a bus or however they get to camp. And you’re like, “I just have to be okay with this.” I’m sure it’s very difficult.
DONNA: Yeah, the drop off and pickup. Yeah.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: And then you’re like, “Woo! I got three weeks of free time. What am I going to do?” Chase your tail for a couple days and then you…[laughs]
JOE: Right.
DONNA: Then you scroll on your phone.
JOE: And that three weeks just fly by and they’re back.
DONNA: No, I would dive into a project.
JOE: Yeah. I’m sure. I’m sure we all have lots of projects that we’re just waiting for some distractions to disappear so we can get into them.
DONNA: Yes.
JOE: Yeah. So meanwhile, down at Fraggle Rock, we see everyone’s cleaning up after the windstorms have all, the dust storms have all finished going through the rock. I like there’s some Doozers driving by in a Doozer car and there’s an inkspot that’s trying to feather dust them as they’re driving away, which is a nice little touch, whoever that is.
And now that everything’s been cleaned up, they are on to more pressing matters like Lanford, whose roots have broken through his pot and Mokey’s using it as a way to wistfully talk about her child growing up. Like we were talking earlier about like the maturity of Mokey and she is so motherly in this episode in a way that I feel, I don’t know about you two, I see my mother a lot in this. She’s that kind of mom that’s just like, “Oh yeah, just don’t go anywhere. Just, you know, just stay a child forever and that’s okay. That’s just going to be our lives from now on.”
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: No, that’s not the big problem. The big problem is not Lanford. The big problem is these radishes that are still gone. And that’s a biggie. That’s a big problem. Cotterpin has a plan, which she will tell you unfortunately she is being buried alive by Boober. Because he’s sweeping and she’s underneath the pile of rubble. What is she actually underneath here, Donna?
DONNA: It’s that magical stuff that’s puppet safe. I think our amazing wranglers know all of these special materials. Like it needs to look like this, but it has to be puppet safe. So I’m not exactly sure what it is. But I know like the bits of dirt are like tiny bits of cork. So this particular one I don’t recall what it is, but it seemed a little dustier than our other stuff. And I believe that’s Kira [Hall] doing Cotterpin in this scene where Cotterpin busts out of the dirt pile.
JOE: Oh, that makes sense. You’re a little busy with Mokey. So that makes sense. When you guys do stuff like that, do you ADR it afterward or are you throwing your voice?
DONNA: It’s definitely Kira doing the voice when we’re shooting and I will either ADR if it’s a big scene or oftentimes when we go in for coverage, so Cotterpin’s close ups, that’s generally the performer performing it. So I think on Cotterpin’s close ups, I think that that’s me. Or sometimes if they were like, “Are you okay with Kira staying?” And I’m like, “Sure.”
So I think it’s pretty easy, but generally they swap and we swap in and I’ll jump in on a close up.
JOE: Sure, that makes sense. So when Cotterpin tells her plan to everybody, I’m going to be honest, I am not smart enough to understand any of this. [laughs] This is like the most sciencey I think that we’ve gotten on Fraggle Rock in all of Fraggle Rockdom.
She says they’re going to take organic materials from the trash heap and they’re going to speed up the composting by a tilling and aeration system powered by a gorg-size turbine, which they’re going to use with the hydroponic radish sprouts that the Doozers were growing.
And somehow all this is radishes. It’s like step one: science. Step two: question mark. Step three: profit. That’s what I’m hearing.
DONNA: Yeah. It’s intense. Isn’t that where the graphics are sort of floating there in front as she’s describing or am I misremembering?
JOE: Oh, yes. I think so. That definitely happens later in the episode too, but yeah. We’re seeing like A Beautiful Mind kind of thing just kind of floating in the ether.
DONNA: Yeah, I think it’s…I don’t know, but I wonder if the producers made that choice because it’s so verbal and because kids might need a visual of what exactly this means because I know I needed the visual of what it meant.
JOE: Right.
JORDAN: You know what was missing there was a shot of the five just staring.
[Joe laughs]
JORDAN: Just blinking, just dead.
JOE: Right. Because they don’t need to understand how the science works. Like, Cotterpin’s got it. Like she knows just “You guys do the work and trust me. There will be radishes at the end of the story.”
And everyone’s on board. Everyone cheers and I love that Wembley is still chanting like, “Cot-ter-pin, Cot-ter-pin.” And he’s like thrusting his hand in the air like he’s doing the dog pound on the Arsenio Hall show.
JORDAN: Yes.
JOE: So what’s in the script for something like that? Are you, like does it say that you’re like throwing your fist in the air or is it just like you’re chanting and you’re like I’m going to put a little spin on this to make it visual?
JORDAN: No, it’s just a Wembley chant and so I just color it in the way that felt right at the time. I just love the idea of little awkward Wembley trying to be cool. Trying to be fun. It’s when he’s trying he’s the most awkward. To me that’s amusing.
JOE: Yeah, I love that. And speaking of Wembley being slightly awkward, there’s this cute moment here that it feels like you almost recorded it knowing that it might get cut and somehow it ended up in the episode. Where Wembley pulls Boober aside. He’s like, “Hey, do you mind if I bounce something off of you?” And then he throws a ball at him.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: And it’s like, “Whew, thank you.” That was hysterical.
JORDAN: Oh good! [laughs]
JOE: And I don’t know what it has to do with anything, but it made me laugh. I had forgotten, like when the scene started, I was like, “Oh, is there a B-plot with Wembley here that I don’t remember? Wembley and Boober. And it’s like, nope, he just wants to throw a ball at him.
JORDAN: Right. Well, it was scripted, but I think it was cut down a little bit. I feel like it was cut down.
JOE: Oh, there was supposed to be a little more there?
JORDAN: I think there was a little more there, but I don’t quite remember what it was. More with the ball maybe. You know what it probably was. I think it was a more technical shot and they just cut it for time. But no, that was scripted. Just a little moment. Like we used to get.
JOE: Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can’t imagine what else you would want to add to that story. It’s so complete. It’s got a beginning and a middle and an end. It has an emotional arc. There’s a literal arc with the ball flying through the air.
JORDAN: Yep.
JOE: Sorry, done.
JORDAN: Delightful.
JOE: In the gorgs’ garden, Junior brings Ma the gorg queen book, which they’re going to start using instead of the gorg king book because the gorg patriarch, he was literally destroying their world. That’s a little familiar, isn’t it?
DONNA: Mmhmm.
JOE: Yep. Gobo and Mokey ask queen Ma for help and she is all too happy to assist. And she’s come such a long way from being like just irrationally afraid of Fraggles. And now she’s like, “Oh, hey, Fraggles. Yeah, you want us to build a wind turbine? Sure. Let’s get to work.”
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: Yeah, I love this for her.
DONNA: Me too.
JOE: She’s a good queen.
DONNA: Yeah, we’re looking at the queen book now.
JOE: That’s right. And the queen book says do whatever the Fraggles ask you to do. [laughs]
DONNA: Mmhmm.
JOE: The queen book also says that there’s a special plant that can help put the nutrients back in the soil and she shows them a picture. And the plant looks shockingly like Lanford. And I love that immediately Lanford is like giving jazz hands. He’s excited about being in a book.
DONNA: So excited. I know. He gets to save the day. Mokey has reservations here. [Makes Mokey noises of non-commitment] Yeah, that’s great.
Yeah, that was a really fun scene. And I seem to recall that we…I mean sometimes we were able to shoot those scenes at the same time. So Johnny and I and Ingrid [Hansen] are in the blue cube and Aymee’s [Garcia] out there in the gorgs’ garden and they are able to do some layering. So I seem to recall we shot that in real time, which is always exciting when we’re able to do that. But, yeah.
JOE: That’s cool. I love that you guys could do that. Like every time you bring it up, it’s like, God, that adds so much to the dialogue and to the character that you can really look at each other.
DONNA: Yes, it’s so helpful to us.
JOE: Really riff off each other if you need to. Yeah.
DONNA: Yeah, we love that. It’s been really wonderful for us.
JOE: I’m sure. Back at the Great Hall, Red seems to be… she’s kind of taking charge a little bit at first of the construction of this turbine. But all the instructions are in this Doozer-sized font, but Red claims to have the best eyes around and there’s this great shot of her holding the instructions from her perspective. So you can see her holding them. You can see her little feet underneath and the focus is kind of coming in and out because she’s trying to focus her eyes.
What a great shot that is. I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything like that kind of POV shot on Fraggle Rock.
DONNA: Yeah, I remember that was a big deal that day. Do you remember that, Jordy? I think I was in and out that day when they were doing that scene. It took took a minute to set it up.
JORDAN: Vaguely. I barely remember anything. It’s just so hard for me.
[All laugh]
JORDAN: Sorry.
JOE: So did they, is that really like shot… Is the camera above, shooting down or did you kind of cheat it so that you could just get the shot however you guys could hold the puppet right?
DONNA: It is a top down because one of our A camera is on a crane or a jib. So it is literally top down so there’s little Red’s feet and hands. And I don’t know if we see her hair but sometimes you know we just take parts of puppets, whatever’s necessary. And I seem to recall there was an issue with the size and they had to run and reprint the blueprints really quick. Do you remember that, Jordy? You don’t–Why am I asking you? You don’t remember.
[Joe and Jordan laugh]
DONNA: But they were like, I think it’s too big or something like that so they ended up changing the size. But, yes, it’s literally puppet hands, puppet feet. And you know, in the feet are not static even though–Everything has to be moving slightly. You know, keeping alive. But yeah, top down.
JOE: And then you mentioned them having to reprint the directions. Do you happen to recall, like is there something actually written there? Is it English?
DONNA: I don’t know. I just remember there being a thing.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: And I may be totally…Do you remember that at all, Jordan? No.
JORDAN: [laughs] No.
JOE: I feel like I remember better than the two of you on this one. I wasn’t even there. What’s interesting, the scene just before this we have Ma showing off her book. And it’s clear, the Gorgs probably don’t have a written language. They’re also communicating via pictures. We’ve seen this with the Fraggles many, many times throughout the series and the old series.
But the Doozers do have a written language. And maybe they have to because they’re so science and architecture-based. But we don’t often see those worlds kind of collide where they’re using words to explain something on a page. And I guess, Red is just supposed to know what that means, because she can maybe read. But maybe not. We don’t know.
DONNA: Yeah. I don’t know. And sadly, Joe, I did not get a good enough look at the blueprints to let you know if it was an actual language or just markings or drawings. I don’t know.
JOE: That’s perfectly okay.
DONNA: But I do know it was top down!
[Joe and Jordan laugh]
JOE: That’s actually the most important thing. As much as I want to know more about Doozer lore and the history. Like at what point did they pick up a language or an alphabet. From whom. From what culture. That’s so interesting to four people in this world. But maybe not to the actual production crew of Fraggle Rock.
JORDAN: Maybe someone from marketing will hear this. And we’ll have Doozer dictionaries and Lanford dictionaries coming out within the next year.
JOE: Yes. Give it to me. Red is equally confused by all this because she’s like, “Forget it. Let’s just start hammering stuff.” And like, I get it. I would get confused and be like, “I have a hammer. This seems like a problem that’s a nail. So let’s go for it.”
Boober is taking a different approach. He just wants to sort all the pieces, count them, sand off the edges, decontaminate, recount, and then soup time. And Wembley seems like he’s only really interested in choosing a song to sing while they work. That’s very Wembley. I like that.
Also interesting that there’s so much that needs to be done. Again, I feel like this is part of the evolution of Wembley is the easy thing would be, Wembley can’t decide what to do. But instead, Wembley seems like he knows exactly what he wants to do. He’s just bringing music into the world. That’s what Wembley does. That’s what all the fraggles do.
And like, throughout this whole episode, as Wembley’s doing this, there’s all these different little songs, or little tunes that he’s humming. Did you just make these up on the spot, Jordan?
JORDAN: Yes. And I gave many different interpretations. And then in ADR, I gave many more takes. And they used, hey, it’s their show. They used what they wanted to use, but I don’t know, man. I gave some real doozies. There was one song that was all farts, I’m telling you. I’m not kidding.
[Joe and Donna laugh]
JOE: When are we going to get the soundtrack to Wembley’s architecture songs?
JORDAN: Maybe Lakeshore will release a single. Vinyl.
JOE: Oh, on vinyl? Yes.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: You know what? Forget it. Just do it on cassette.
JORDAN: 8 track.
JOE: 8 track. Yes.
JORDAN: Come on. Let’s keep going. Keep going.
JOE: Love it. [laughs] The Architect Doozer sees that Mokey’s having this big emotional reaction to the Lanford situation, and he says he can relate. He’s having a hard time letting go of his strawberry hat. He wants to keep wearing it, but what will the boss think? [laughs]
And Cotterpin reminds him that he’s the boss. And he’s like, “Hey, guys, the boss says it’s okay.” I love that.
And it feels so much like John Tartaglia’s actual creative process of, but what, we can’t do this thing on Fraggle Rock. And then someone is like, John, you’re in charge. And he goes, oh, great. So it’s done. The boss says it’s okay. [laughs]
DONNA: The Architect and Johnny are very similar.
JORDAN: Mmhmm.
DONNA: Very similar.
JOE: They both have very colorful professional pasts working with celebrities.
DONNA: Mm-hmm. That too. Yep.
JOE: Yep.
JORDAN: And talking about it ad nauseum. Just kidding.
[Joe and Donna laugh]
JOE: And they both look great in strawberry hats.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: Yeah, I believe that.
[Jordan laughs]
JOE: Gobo confronts Mokey in her cave about how she’s feeling about this whole Lanford situation. And she’s like, Lanford isn’t ready for such a big change. He’s just a baby. And there’s this great shot of Lanford drinking out of a water pot and then pouring it all over it himself. That’s a great visual.
DONNA: Yes, like the original script was him shaving.
[Joe laughs]
DONNA: Shaving with one and holding a little mirror with the other. I think was in the original.
JOE: Oh, that’s funny.
DONNA: So instead, they have him sipping what appears to be coffee and then, yeah, watering himself. But the intent is still there. And we see the beginning of Mokey kind of losing it. Her slow descent into madness for this episode.
JOE: [laughs] It’s so great. And so I’m glad you mentioned the coffee thing because I was looking at the scene trying to figure out how are we showing that this is Lanford showing off his newfound maturity? Because that could go either way where he’s just taking a drink and then pouring water all over himself. That’s something a child would do.
But making it, no, it’s coffee. That makes a bit more sense. The shaving thing would have been hysterical though. I’m a little disappointed you guys didn’t go for it.
DONNA: Yeah, I’m not sure why. I think, you know, it could be a safety thing.
JOE: Sure. Yeah, yeah, a razor.
DONNA: They don’t want kids to grab dad’s razor and yeah.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: Lame.
JOE: But I want to see Lanford, like, in shaving cream. Like on I guess what would be the bottom half of his head.
DONNA: That would be fun.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: That would have been great.
JOE: Three!
JORDAN: I love it when Muppets shave.
JOE: Right? When I shaved–
JORDAN: Remember when Kermit was shaving?
JOE: I was just going to say that. Like when I shave, when I’m putting on my lather.
JORDAN: Soap suds.
JOE: I gotta think about those soap suds that Kermit is shaving in The Great Muppet Caper.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: And he says, what is it? “If I had whiskers, I guess I’d have to use a blade.”
JORDAN: Yeah. I guess I’d have to use a blade.
DONNA: Ah, so great.
JOE: So Mokey has a great idea. She runs off. And while she’s gone, Measure Doozer pops in and takes the boulder that Lanford’s sitting on away for their construction and Lanford along for the ride. So when Mokey returns, he’s gone.
But she comes back with a giant pot with Pogey inside dressed as a plant with their arms straight up holding leaves. What a great visual this is.
DONNA: This was one of my absolute favorite moments in the whole season, I have to say. And that Kanja [Chen] and Pogey were taking it so very seriously. Pogey is so into this role and staring straight ahead. And occasionally would peek down and then, you know, snap right back into it. So, so funny. So great.
JOE: [laughs] Ah, I love that. I kind of wish… I know we’ll get more Pogey in a little bit, but I kind of wish we got to see more of them as a plant. What else would Pogey do as a plant? Just to like try to trick Gobo into being like, no, no, I’m a real plant. Mokey says I’m a plant, so I’m a plant.
DONNA: I don’t know. I think he would just, he would literally, I think if he wasn’t released, he would stand there for weeks probably being a plant. “I’m a plant.”
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: No, I think he would take it so seriously that he would just do that.
JOE: I think you’re right. Pogey’s just game. I love how game they are. Just like whatever you guys want to do, I’m in. That’s Pogey.
In the Gorgs’ garden, the turbine is coming together. Boober is going over the details of the directions. Red is hammering away at nothing. Wembley is humming along. And what I love here is that we see Ma in the background and she’s getting her hands dirty. And she’s hammering away as well. Because as the queen, she can easily be like, okay, I’m in charge. Like, I’m going to be the chief here and make sure that you’re doing your job and you’re working away and I’ll sit in my chair and supervise.
But nope, she’s in there as well. Which I guess is also really, like that speaks a lot to what you all do on Fraggle Rock and even before that, the work ethic of Jim Henson where it’s like, he wouldn’t ask people to do anything that he wouldn’t do himself. Just getting in there with a puppet and doing something silly in the background or learning some complicated choreography or whatever it is. It’s like, yeah, we’re all working together for the greater good.
DONNA: Mmhmm. Yep.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s, wouldn’t you say, Jordy, we all got called in at different times to help out. You know, they try to spread it all around. But yeah, it was always a pleasure. And yeah, everyone just leaps up. There was no big attitudes about it. [Makes complaining noise] Everyone just really jumped in and lent a hand.
JORDAN: Yes, it’s a great feeling. I think I said before, in one of our talks, Joe, it’s an emotional thing to service another performance, especially those big group days. I don’t know what it is. It’s just everyone doing their little part and bringing together just this one idea. It’s powerful. I don’t mean to sound overdramatic, but I mean it is a great feeling. So it’s addictive. You want to do it.
DONNA: Mmhmm.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: You want to avail yourself.
JOE: That feeling of we’re all in this together. And if the boss is available and there’s a free puppet or someone needs help with an arm, like there’s no reason they’re not jumping in as well. Or just grabbing a hammer and hammering away at nothing. As long as they’re looking busy, maybe that’s the important thing. [laughs]
So Cotterpin flies in on her jetpack. I love when the Doozers are using their jetpacks. I think it’s adorable. And she says that she hopes that all the Fraggles are on the same page here. And this is where we get our first song of the episode. It is called “Same Page.”
JORDAN: Woo.
JOE: And it’s a rap, which is rare for Fraggle Rock to get a real rap song. And I love the visual of this one because it’s mostly just Red, Boober and Wembley dancing in front of a green screen, which is turned into a virtual background for the episode. And these dances are incredible.
Like, can you tell me a little bit about how they came together? Because we’ve talked on this podcast a little bit about when there’s big group choreography and Johnny’s coming in and telling everyone what to do and how to sway and what’s going to happen. But these are, it’s a different kind of choreography because you probably have several people on each puppet to create a move. So how did they come together?
JORDAN: Well, those for me anyway, it was a team of three, Kanja, Ingrid and myself. And one of the first things Johnny said was for Wembley’s piece, ’90s music video.
JOE: Great.
JORDAN: Hip hop or something. I’m so uncool.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: But that’s all he needed to say. I was like, “Oh, okay, okay.” And Kanja threw in some great ideas and Ingy threw in some great ideas and just hitting every beat in that song with something. That’s how it should go. All that stuff. It was really fun.
Let me think. I think Ingy was on…Kanja was on legs. I think Ingy was on right arm. God, I’m so bad at this. I think that’s it. And it was just so much fun because you know, the song was so fast and there’s so much going on. And he’s got this giant hat on that’s pushing his eyeballs down into his head. So I’m trying to keep him looking.
JOE: Oh, right, because they’re all wearing their construction helmets. Yeah.
JORDAN: That’s right. That’s right. So fighting against that, while try to get some of these wacky movements going was a bit of a challenge. But I love the way it came out, especially with the punches, the camera punching in and out. Oh my God. It’s glorious.
JOE: That was very like ’90s rap. That like get really close to the camera thing. Yeah, that was the one thing I recognized from the era. [laughs]
DONNA: That’s a great number. I have to say that I was very lightly involved in that number. I think Johnny and I were shooting a lot of mossy cave stuff simultaneously because this set was a three ring circus. We always had multiple units going at the same time. But seeing “Same Page,” the end result of it was just like, oh, such a highlight. And yeah, fantastic. Excellent job, Jordy. And others.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: Oh, by the way. I believe Johnny did direct those sequences.
JOE: Oh he did? So yeah, so that was what I was kind of curious about is like with the choreography, it sounds like he kind of gave the three of you notes on like, here’s the vibe we’re going for and you kind of choreographed the scene. But was he like jumping in to be like, “Okay, actually what would make it better is if like you moved your arms in this way or you do this kind of dance move?” Or was it just like, “No, you got it. You made Wembley look like he’s actually dancing like a real person. Great. Let’s film it?”
JORDAN: Johnny gives great notes. I think that whole sequence was like, it became a second unit thing because the show’s insane. The schedule’s insane and there’s so much going on and sometimes people got to jump in and take on certain things. And I’m pretty sure, at least my section of the video, he took over that and directed so beautifully. Gave great little notes here and there. But you know, he’s crazy like all of us. So he also wants to see what you’re going to do. He wants you to go too far. You know?
JOE: Yeah, right. [laughs] Well, and just to trust you as performers. Like y’all are professionals. You wiggle dolls for a living and like, let’s see what you can do if you’re not being told exactly what steps to take. You know? Come up with something creative.
JORDAN: You never feel untrusted by the man. Ever.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: Yeah. I believe that.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: So Gobo and Mokey go searching for Lanford. While they’re going through the caves, they’re passing some cool-looking creatures. And we’ve talked on this podcast a bit about some of the puppets that came from old Fraggle Rock that were refurbished and being used as background characters here. And there was one that I noticed that I don’t think I’d ever seen before. I had to go searching for it on Muppet Wiki. Muppet Wiki just calls it a snake, but it’s like this purple snake with these bulgy eyes. If you know the Muppet character Shaky Sanchez, like his face kind of looks like him.
And apparently it appeared in one episode of the original series, “Scared Silly.” And I think it’s made two or three appearances here on Back to the Rock. So I guess the question here would be…
JORDAN: I can already tell we can’t help you. But go ahead. [laughs]
[Donna laughs]
JOE: No. So if you’re picking up a character like this, like if you’re like looking at the table, like they say pick some weird looking characters to fill the background, do they have names or you’re just like that one looks creepy? Let’s do it. That’s fun.
DONNA: I think the puppets are chosen. So it’s not, I don’t think it’s random. I think they know what puppet is going to go where, especially for cave creatures, because it’s all about where the camera is and making sure it’s seen and making sure the puppeteers safe behind the set and all that stuff. So I think there is a little more thought into it rather than just a table full of puppets and pick up something. That is true on some other jobs and certainly for the gaggle Fraggles it is. Go grab a gaggle fraggle and come on back.
But for this one, yeah, but do they have names? They do. Do I know them? I do not.
JOE: [laughs] All right. We’ll get to the bottom of that one.
DONNA: Sorry.
JOE: We’ll figure that one out. Hey, that’s okay. And then do you happen to know, are there more of these strange creature puppets from the original series that maybe haven’t made their Back to the Rock debut yet?
DONNA: I would assume so. I would just imagine it depends on the state that they’re in.
JOE: Mmhmm.
DONNA: And how much time and money it would take to refurbish them. I think a lot of it is are they camera ready? Are they, you know, do they fit into this new world?
JOE: Right.
DONNA: And yeah, I think they’ll pull as much from the original series as they can. I mean, why not?
JOE: Sure.
DONNA: Already made puppets.
JOE: It’s just such a specific Easter egg. If we could even call them Easter egg that I don’t know many people who would recognize, who would be like, oh, that’s the snake from the episode “Scared Silly.” It doesn’t even have a name. Like it’s just this thing that we saw once 40 some years ago.
I’m kind of fascinated by that idea that maybe they’re like making a reference for, again, for four people. But maybe I’m one of those people. So thanks, Henson, for giving me the fraggle snake.
Gobo and Mokey find a set of muddy footprints and Mokey’s like, oh, that must be from Lanford, which is such a weird thing to say because Lanford doesn’t have feet.
DONNA: You know, it’s just hope. It’s just blind hope at this point, Joe. A little desperate blind hope.
JOE: Naturally. [laughs] But no, it’s you know, who does have feet? It’s Pogey. It’s Pogey’s footprints and they have climbed a wall so they wouldn’t track mud into the Great Hall. Which is also a cool visual that Pogey’s just kind of like splayed in the corner, like holding on for dear life. But this upcoming moment here is definitely my favorite moment of the episode where Pogey runs into Little Rago and they have a little conversation.
JORDAN: Oh, yeah.
JOE: And it sounds like if I got it correctly, Little Rago as they’re walking away goes, “Oh, what time did you get home last night? Pogey goes, “Uh, rutabaga.” [laughs] I don’t know if I’m hearing that right or not. The subtitles did not help.
JORDAN: That’s just what it sounds like.
JOE: Yeah, that they say rutabaga. I rewound that four times to watch it over and over again. That just made me laugh like nothing else.
DONNA: They may be saying rutabaga. I wonder if it’s like a peas and carrots kind of just keep the mouth moving kind of thing.
JOE: Sure.
DONNA: But maybe, you know what, maybe that’s Pogey’s time. Their time is in vegetables.
JOE: It could be.
DONNA: It could be.
JOE: I mean, it really seems like time is not a thing in Fraggle Rock. You know, it’s like, what they have a bedtime? They have to show up at work at a certain time? No, no, no.
DONNA: That’s right.
JOE: Like, time is meaningless. Holidays, whenever you want. Yeah, no, there’s no dates. There’s no clocks. Forget it. But this also convinced me we need a Pogey Little Rago episode if we get a season three because how great would this be? They’re buddies. They’re just hanging around in the caves.
DONNA: Doesn’t Little Rago call Pogey “my dude” in this scene?
JOE: Yes. [laughs] Yes.
DONNA: My dude. I think that’s ingrid. I don’t think that was scripted, but I’m not sure.
JOE: That’s great.
JORDAN: Road trip.
JOE: And Ingrid told us, not that you’re going to have any information on this, but Ingrid kind of hinted that there might be more to Little Rago that will be revealed at some future point. And I just want to know. I want to see that. I wanna see it so bad.
DONNA: Yeah. We all do, Joe. We all do.
JOE: Good. Let’s make it happen.
JORDAN: Oh, speaking of Ingy. Speaking of Ingy. I just remembered she was on legs. Kanja was on right arm in the rap video. Ha! Thank you.
JOE: You did it.
JORDAN: Moving on.
DONNA: Woo! Phew.
JOE: That was going to bother me for the whole episode.
JORDAN: I was going to wake up at 3 a.m. like, “Joe! Joe! I got it!” Anyhow…
JOE: [laughs] I would love to get a text on you that’s just like, “Ingy was on legs!” And then just, I’ll assume I knew what that meant.
So, Mokey, she trips and falls into this pit. It’s like a cliff. Like a bottomless pit.
DONNA: Okay.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: Let’s talk for a second about that shot, which is one of my favorite shots.
JOE: Tell me everything.
DONNA: I may have described this to you already, Joe. That shot was awesome. So J.J. Johnson is directing. He was our very first director in season one. And he ended up being our last director in season two, which is a cool, full circle thing.
But so they’re using the crane. And that’s the three-Mokey shot, where it’s here as Mokey saying, “Maybe he went this way. Lanford.” And then you cross this pillar and you see a “Waa!” And you see the stunt Mokey go, “Woosh,” which is Ben Durocher. And then I’m attached to the Mokey that’s attached to the vine and swinging as the camera arcs over and tilts down and then it becomes a top down, over Gobo onto Mokey dangling from the root, which I thought was just such an exciting shot with three different versions of this puppet.
And I was like, there’s no way they’re going to get this all in one. And they did. And I was like, “Wow, you guys! This is one of those moments where everyone’s just firing on all cylinders. The puppeteers’ timing was perfect. The camera team’s timing was perfect. It was so exciting. And there, you know, here with someone else, I think, maybe or on their own and then Ben. And then I was down there in blue with Aymee and Andy [Hayward], I think, doing full-body Mokey swinging from a–Anyway, it was just an awesome moment of dang, there’s some just fine, fine camera work on this show.
JORDAN: And we just knew it was a trailer moment.
JOE: Absolutely. This is exactly why Fraggle Rock stands above most other curt puppet stuff because you guys are willing to go the extra mile. There’s no reason you had to do that, but it added such a sense of realism and also like this cinematic feel to what you’re creating.
Like, it could have been just Mokey jumps out of frame and then cuts to she’s hanging from the vine. And that would have been fine and no one would have questioned it. But again, like, going the extra mile. There’s a phrase in filmmaking and I’m going to get this wrong. I think it’s called tapping the lights or tapping the chandelier, something like that. And it’s a reference to Who Framed Roger Rabbit. There’s a scene where they’re hiding out in the bar, like behind the wall, if you remember the movie. And Eddie and Roger are handcuffed together. And as they go into the room, Roger’s head hits the lamp that starts– that’s hanging from the ceiling. And it starts swinging back and forth.
JORDAN: Oh yeah. Oh god.
JOE: And if you know anything about animation, you know how impossible that is to show the shadows moving around Roger because the light is constantly moving. And it was one of those things where you would never know if you didn’t know. And it just adds so much to the realism. You don’t have to do it.
But sometimes you’ve got to tap the light and really show that we’re willing to make this thing look real. And to show that like, look what we can do. And I love that. There’s so much of that throughout this whole series that you guys are doing. I’m eating it up.
DONNA: Ah, good. So are we.
JORDAN: I just Googled it. It’s called bumping the lamp.
JOE: Bumping the lamp. OK, I was close. Thank you for googling that.
JORDAN: It’s a good reference, dude. That’s a great reference.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: Yeah. Wow.
JOE: And speaking of references, so in the moment when Mokey’s hanging from the root with one hand and holding onto the pot with the other hand and Gobo, first of all, Gobo says, “Use two hands.” And Mokey says, “Well, if I hold the pot with two hands I’ll fall.” Which I think is hysterical.
But you know, so basically he’s like give me your hand and she’s not willing to let go with the other hand. And this is exactly that scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, where Elsa is hanging out. She can’t let go. She can almost reached the grail. And he’s like, “Give me your hand, Honey. I can’t hold ya.” Her glove falls, it slips out. What a great scene. I love that movie.
Yeah, you’re referencing all the 80s movies unintentionally.
JORDAN: I like you, Joe.
JOE: This is how my brain works is just in film metaphor.
DONNA: That’s how Jordan’s brain works too. Very much so.
JOE: Mm, yeah, yeah, not surprised. Because only the best people think about 80s movies all the time and how it relates to Fraggle Rock.
[Donna and Jordan laugh]
JORDAN: Best people, huh? Okay.
JOE: Yeah, that’s us. You and me.
So, yeah, Mokey decides to let it go. She drops the pot. She grabs Gobo’s tail so she can be lifted back up. Now, this whole scene here, the emotions that are going through Mokey’s head and the way that she’s conveying them, of feeling like it’s time for me to let go. And there’s a sadness and a gratitude toward it and then immediately flipping to, “Oh, I’ll just make a new pot.”
Donna, what you’re doing here is so brilliant. This is maybe, this might be my favorite Mokey performance that you’ve done on the whole series.
DONNA: Aw.
JOE: I don’t know how else to explain just how impressed I am by what you’re bringing to her character here. And there’s a moment where like, my heart breaks for her here. And like, this could have been the end of her arc because she’s learned her lesson. But then, nope. Back to normal. Here we go. Yeah. Incredible.
DONNA: I think, it is a little…Thank you for that. It is a bit of, she kind of goes a little mad in this episode. And I was worried that it was like, “Oh gosh, is her going at this high RPM going to just get really annoying or hard on the ear or something.” But you kind of just got to cast that aside and go there and know that it’s going to pay off in the end.
But she’s just, you know, she hasn’t…she’s not there yet and she gets there in the next scene. But it was, it was a bit tough. But I can relate and I’ll elaborate when we talk about the next scene. But thank you for that.
JOE: Oh, okay. Of course. Yeah. So, Gobo and Mokey continue their search through the Gorgs’ Garden. Another amazing shot here where we’re seeing the two of them walking from above, straight down shot. How the heck did you do this? Where are you? Like we should be able to see everything.
DONNA: Oh, I was so happy. I was so happy with how that turned out. I think that was one of the end of the day shots. We had done like all of that cave stuff. We were wiped and then we have to do this super technical scene. And I think everyone was really rushing and we had this like long plank, almost like a balance beam, if you can imagine. And they’re kind of in line, I seem to think.
And I think I remember Andy was doing Mokey’s feet and I…Gosh, I don’t remember. I’m sure Kira was there. But yeah, it just worked out and when you’re in blue, you don’t quite know where all you are in terms of like the Gorgs are over here. This is over here. And so J.J. was there going, “Okay, when you hear a noise, it has to be over here at like 11 o’clock or something.”
We go, “Oh, okay.” And then you try to make it like you’re running in that direction. And I think we did have the layer in. So we did see the sort of leaves on the ground. And then it was like, okay, great. That’s helpful. And lining up the balance beam to where the path and the leaves is.
So it’s quite, you know, it’s quite complex. But I think, like that crane shot that I mentioned earlier, it was a super complicated shot that we ended up getting in like four takes. It just was one of those things that worked out. And I was like, oh, it really is some of the best full-body stuff, I think, was that crazy top-down shot. I’m so proud of all the full-body stuff that we did in this episode between “Same Page” and little shots like this and Red looking at the prints. I just, it was just very exciting, I thought.
JOE: So great. And a good reminder that Fraggles have feet, you know, like they have whole bodies. Sometimes we just need to remember like, oh, right. It’s not just, you know, torso up.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: They’re real.
DONNA: No feet like Fraggle feet.
JOE: Exactly.
DONNA: They’re just too cute.
JOE: They really are. So they find Lanford. He’s already been planted in the Gorgs’ garden and Mokey notices how happy he is and how grown-up he looks. And so we’ve talked on this podcast a little bit about, there were some stuff that got cut that kind of showed Lanford like growing and evolving throughout the season, kind of building up to this point.
And it’s fine. Like, we didn’t need it, obviously. We still got the point. But like in this moment, Lanford does look large. Like he is actually an adult. Has he been getting bigger throughout the season or has he been kind of changing in that way throughout the season from your perspective? Or is it just like, nope, now he’s where he has to be. You know, he’s found his next step in his evolution. And therefore he’s grown in this episode. And not necessarily through the whole season.
DONNA: Hmm. Well, definite in this episode, that I definitely see. Yeah. And I think that’s some of the genius of Ingrid. And really, you know, he’s very confident. He’s very happy where he is. Yeah. Definitely growth in this season that Mokey doesn’t see. Or refuses to see. And refuses to accept. And then, of course, by the end when she rounds that corner with Gobo and then sees him. And then it’s just undeniable that, you know.
And then she has that scene. And I was really crying in that scene. And interestingly, my daughter was visiting set that day and had like, just arrived. And so Veronica was there on set hanging out by the camera. So it made it extra, extra special that Veronica was there. And so yeah.
And then we went, gosh, we went. So that scene straight into the song. We did it pretty much that scene all in one which was tough. But yeah, we did it. And it’s tricky because, you know, we’ve talked about this before, how the set catches. So if Mokey’s going slowly into hug Lanford and it catches on something, and then goes, “Doink!” and then we would just say, “Cut. Oh, yeah, we have to cut. We have to cut.” But, yeah. So really powerful.
And, you know, Johnny wrote this episode, of course. And he said, he was thinking a lot about me and Veronica while he was writing it. And because I’ve known Johnny a while, and he was there when I sent Veronica off to college. And, you know, so we’ve grown together. And yeah, it’s very much letting go of… it’s very much, it’s very parental in that you know you have to let go. You know that time is coming, but you can’t accept it, but you ultimately know it is the best for them. And therefore, it’s the best for you too. But very hard to accept in the moment.
JOE: It’s so method of you to have a child, just so you can do this episode with the appropriate emotion.
DONNA: You know, I give a lot. I give a lot to my art, Joe. You know, there’s nothing I won’t give to my art.
JOE: Yeah, naturally.
[Donna and Joe laugh]
JOE: This episode also, as you were talking, reminding me of, there’s a movie that’s out right now called The Good Robot. Oh excuse me, The Wild Robot. The Wild Robot. And I went to see it and it really tackles a lot of the same themes of kind of, you know, what parenthood looks like and what letting go looks like in this very like mature way that we’re letting go, but it’s not saying goodbye, but it’s letting your child grow and like, what does that mean for the parents?
It’s not like you’re just, your story’s over. There’s more to who you are.
DONNA: I can’t wait to see it.
JOE: And you can grow because of it. Yeah.
DONNA: Day before yesterday, I went for a walk with Dan Garza. And his daughter is two weeks older than mine and he was seeing the movie that day. He goes, “I don’t know anything about it, but I know that parents cry when they see it.”
JOE: Yep.
DONNA: He said, “I think you might want to see it.” I’m like, okay.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: Yeah, I can’t wait to see it.
JOE: Yeah, it’s great. Yes, bring tissues. I mean, I’m not a parent, but like I got it. I felt it as well. Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, as you said, this is where we get our second song of the episode. It’s called “Lose Your Heart.” It’s from the original series episode “Mokey and the Minstrels.” Mostly this song is kind of, the visuals are a montage of Mokey and Lanford moments from throughout the season, which is a nice revisit. Especially their Dirty Dancing move, which is still a series highlight for me.
[Jordan and Donna laugh]
JOE: When Gobo was singing, before Mokey joins in, it sounds to me like Wembley is harmonizing with him. Are you singing on the song as well, Jordan?
JORDAN: I don’t believe so.
JOE: No. It really sounds like it to me.
DONNA: I think that’s me. That’s me, Joe.
JOE: In the first verse? Hmm.
DONNA: Yeah. (singing) Seek your heart on the high blue skyway. (in normal voice) Yeah, that’s me.
JOE: Oh, okay. I just, it sounded so much like Wembley to me. You do a great Wembley impression. Or it’s just my ears don’t work.
DONNA: I think because it’s low.
JORDAN: Back off.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: [laughs] I think because it’s low. For me, the most exciting thing about singing that song was that it is in the same key as the original. Bit of the harmonies are different. A little of the phrasing is different and they wanted to make it sound a little more modern. So we changed the phrasing a bit. But listening to the original and hearing Jim singing in that exact same key was very, ah. It just meant a lot.
JOE: Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. Like you get it to kind of duet with him a little bit.
JORDAN: And we were right about to wrap too. That was right at the end of the schedule almost and we were all very sensitive and emotional. And that song came along, just punch you in the gut.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: Yeah. I think there was our penultimate day as a group, wasn’t it?
JORDAN: Yeah, you’re right. That’s it. Yeah.
JOE: Wow.
DONNA: Cause the next day, we shot “Hope and Socks.”
JORDAN: That’s right.
DONNA: In that set and then said goodbye to all our Calgary puppeteers. So yeah, it was a fraught time period that time period.
JOE: Wow. This episode is so full of so many different emotions.
DONNA: Mmhmm.
JOE: On screen, behind the scenes, talking about it now months later. I mean, good God, we need a break. It’s exhausting.
[Donna and Joe laugh]
JOE: The Gorgs are putting the final pieces of the turbine into place, but they need something to prop this heavy machinery up. And Pa has a shocking moment of growth. And he decides he’s going to give up his Gorg king book. And he puts it right in there and it puts it at the right height or whatever it needs to do. Again, don’t understand the science behind this whole thing. And it works and Pa saves the day. The lesson here that I got was never throw anything away because you never know when it’s going to come in handy.
JORDAN: Oh, God. [laughs]
JOE: [laughs] Hoard, hoard, hoard. That’s what I’m getting out of this. Thank you, Fraggle Rock. But yeah. It felt so much like there’s a meme of the guy saying like God, the perfect thing would be if I had like a three and a quarter inch piece of wood that was at a certain slant. And the dad goes, I know exactly what you need. And he runs to the garage and he finds…You know, it’s like, I held onto this for 20 years and now I can finally put it to use. And that’s Pa in this moment is that’s why we’ve had this book for around for so long. It’s the perfect height.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: Yep.
JORDAN: So we’re validating these people. Great.
JOE: Yes. Thank you. As a hoarder myself, I thank you for validating me.
JORDAN: Are you really?
JOE: Yeah. I mean, this is that collector’s mentality. Like I have to have everything and then once I have it, even if I don’t have a use for it, I can’t get rid of it. If it can’t fit on the shelf, it goes in the closet and then it stays there for years and years and years until I can finally let it go. Which I’ve gotta learn a little something from this episode for that reason alone.
But yeah, it’s…Honestly, it’s difficult for me as a Muppet fan, as a person who’s a fan of things.
JORDAN: You’re a completist.
JOE: I am a completist. I am. And I really, I have to like do soul searching when it’s like, okay, there’s a new set of Funko Pops out. Do I really need to buy like six more Funko Pops? Because I have all the other Funko Pops. But I need them, but do I need them? And then I get them and then I maybe have regrets. But then I can’t get rid of them because I have them now and they’re mine. And it’s just like…This has become such a therapy session for me.
DONNA: Yeah.
JORDAN: Why don’t you lie down?
JOE: Yeah, I could use a lie down after that. Yeah, absolutely.
DONNA: Wow.
JORDAN: Oh, well, in that case, if the episode helped you, then forgive me, sir.
[All laugh]
JOE: Truth be told, I think a lot of people in our community, in the Muppet fan community, kind of feel the same way because Muppet stuff, Muppets, Sesame, Fraggle stuff, it’s not as… there’s not as much out there as like Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, whatever. Like when we find a piece of Fozzie Bear merchandise in the wild, you have to have it.
Like you searched for it and you found it and like that’s something to celebrate. And then once you have it, and you don’t know what to do with it, that’s when the hoarding mentality comes in. And also to recognize like hoarding isn’t always the person who’s been collecting newspapers for decades. It’s just having things without reason and, you know, maybe having so much that it affects your life.
And, you know, it’s something I’ve definitely had to deal with for a long time and I’m assuming that a lot of people who are listening to this maybe feel the same way.
JORDAN: Have you ever had a moment where 20 years later, you’re like, oh my God, I have that. I need that. And it actually came in handy?
JOE: Yes. All the time.
JORDAN: Awesome.
JOE: All the time. But more so, it’s the other way around, where it’ll be like that thing that I got rid of and I’m like, ugh, I wish I hadn’t. And it’s like, that’s not a rational thought. Like that’s not, I actually didn’t, but there’s a part of me that’s like, but, maybe I should have kept it because it brings me joy that it exists.
JORDAN: Right. Gotcha.
JOE: Which, you know, there’s a balance. There’s a balance of all that stuff. Yeah.
DONNA: Jordan, are you a hoarder? Jordan?
JORDAN: To a degree…oh God. This is letting people in way too close. I’m like a film music nerd. And nerd is not a big enough word. I almost want to call it a problem because I don’t understand it. But I collect film scores like you wouldn’t believe on all formats. And it’s not a problem to the point where I can’t maneuver around my house, kind of like you, right?
JOE: Yep.
JORDAN: It’s just stuff gets tucked away. You start to think like…Anyway, it’s everything you just said basically. So I relate to that.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: I don’t quite relate to like the insane clutter, like you see on The Learning Channel. But there’s definitely that thought process of this brings me joy or brought me a lot of joy once upon a time. It could bring someone joy now, but it brought me a lot of joy once upon a time. So I’ll just stick this away, and bring something new to the forefront. It’s, yeah…Oh, look, our time’s up.
JOE: [laughs] At least but the nice thing about that is it’s paper. So like you can condense it. Like it doesn’t have to be on display all over your home. You know, you can kind of consciously collect in that way.
JORDAN: I’m talking about albums too though. Not just sheet music.
JOE: Oh really, not just sheet music?
JORDAN: Although I have lots of that too. Lots of signed stuff. It’s out of control.
JOE: Oh, that’s cool. I get it though. But for that reason–
DONNA: Guys, I’m actually the opposite of a hoarder, I think. Well, you know what? My mind is cluttered with…So I think I hoard in my mind. So I remember things. I remember dates. I don’t know why. I remember numbers. It’s a weird thing I have. So I have to have negative space around me. And clutter makes me anxious.
JORDAN: Oh, yes.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: I’m the opposite of a hoarder. Well, I hoard in my brain, but I can’t hoard around me. I’m great at organizing and I’m great at throwing things out. I think in some other life, I’m a professional organizer. Nerd!
JORDAN: Donna, you said you have a thing for dates. I have that thing with dates too. I remember things vividly. How do you see time laid out in your brain?
DONNA: Huh. I just can tell you that the first measurable snow of the fall in 1974 in Nashville, Tennessee, was November 14th because I was so happy. I told myself, I’m going to remember this day forever and I have.
JOE: That’s incredible. I’m impressed. I genuinely speaking, I am very, very impressed.
DONNA: I just remember dates. I don’t know. I don’t…I don’t know. I think it’s visual for me. But I don’t know. I have a very noisy brain.
JORDAN: I see it like a… not a grid, but basically a timeline that goes left to right. You know, with all the lines and stuff? That’s kind of how I see it and I can stop and zoom in and I see all these events. It’s nuts.
JOE: Wow.
DONNA: Wow.
JORDAN: I don’t understand it. Yeah. So when you said that, I was like, Ooh, I wonder how her brain unpacks time. Because it’s fun.
DONNA: Fun.
JOE: And like, I have no sense of time at all. Like, I’m that person who’s like, oh, that thing we did, you know, like a month ago. And my wife will be like, that was in 2005. What are you talking about? But talking about hoarding information and like this, again, is, I think, one thing that I don’t know if I picked it up from running ToughPigs or if I use it to run ToughPigs, but having all this Muppet information in my head and not knowing what to do with it. And I’m so grateful I have an outlet for it. You know, through the website and through these podcasts.
And you know, I think that’s one of the things that makes me a good person to be able to do that because I have all this information that’s got nowhere to go. And you know, I could talk about it to no one or I can run this website, write articles, do podcasts, whatever, talk to you folks with a bit of confidence that I know what I’m talking about.
DONNA: Hmm.
JOE: Right?
JORDAN: That sounds like a healthy outlet.
JOE: I hope so, because it’s all I got. So if it’s not healthy, I’m screwed.
JORDAN: No, it’s good that you have something to put this toward that it’s not just sitting swirling, swirling around inside of you. I think this is for the best that you’re doing this, dude.
JOE: [laughs] Thank you.
JORDAN: Yeah. It’s cool.
JOE: Wow. We really cracked this whole thing wide open here. I don’t even know how to segue back to Fraggle Rock. That was just such a good…
JORDAN: Well, I think the moment’s gone.
JOE: …good mental health conversation.
[All laugh]
JOE: Well, I’ll just jump back into the episode then. So yeah, Mokey waters Lanford, who, as we said, has been planted in the garden. He’s taken some deep roots and we see, we get a nice shot of the roots throughout the soil and it kind of looks like the energy flowing through them. And they are ready for the turbine to start. And nothing happens because there’s no wind.
The irony because we’ve been dealing with so much wind throughout this whole season that now is when the wind is like, nah I’m good. And we get Barry Blueberry and Sherry Contrary who pop up to tell us what we already know. That all of Fraggle Rock is in peril.
Really, they’re just there to say to be continued. Or rather to be concluded because we have one more episode to go. And that’s where our episode wraps. So any other thoughts about this episode? Any other reflections on any of these scenes that we maybe didn’t cover?
DONNA: Cotterpin poppin’ in on “Same Page.” Cotterpin saying, (in voice of Cotterpin) “Hey, it looks like you have it under control.” (in normal voice) And smash cut to her and Junior going, yeah, they don’t have it under control or whatever that was. That was pretty fun.
JOE: Yeah. I didn’t mention that moment, but you’re right. It’s so interesting to see a Doozer and a Gorg communicating together.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: That’s rare.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: And I’m not going to say it isn’t earned, because it is just thematically through the season. But it would have been nice to have had more of a build up to, like there’s so much in this series and the previous series about the Fraggles and the Gorgs. Fraggles and the Doozers, Fraggles and the Silly creatures, whatever it is. And the Doozers and the Gorgs are only connected through the Fraggles.
DONNA: Right.
JOE: So I would have loved to have seen a little bit more about like, what does Cotterpin have in common with Junior? Or how can they connect on this crisis as opposed to Cotterpin just showing up and being like, “Hey, man, can you help out with these Fraggles who can’t sit still, please?”
One of those things that I’m sure you would have gotten to if you had 25 episodes in a season.
DONNA: Probably.
JOE: Yeah. Yeah.
JORDAN: If it was the 90s.
JOE: It was the 90s, man. Actually, it wasn’t. It was the 80s.
JORDAN: No, if it was the 90s, we’d still have 25, 28 episode seasons.
JOE: Yeah. True.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: Well, I just got to say, I love this episode as we talked about at length. Just the emotion of this episode really got to me. It felt like such a good narrative, a good conversation that the episode was having about a pretty complex idea, this idea of letting go. And I think you guys handled it really well.
DONNA: Thank you.
JOE: I hope the kids watching felt that way too.
DONNA: I hope so too.
JORDAN: It was really fun watching Donna prepare for all of those big scenes and to just kill them all. It’s always fun. It’s always amazing to watch. I mean, we talked a little bit about, Donna, we talked about the sashay dance. And how just that whole week leading up to it was so intense. Not intense. It was just, I could see you were working it out all the time. And then I watched you nail it. And it was the same with this episode.
It’s just so fun to see your focus, the way you work with your team, the way you communicate, and just totally kill it and walk away from it. Just like wipe your hands off. Like yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. That’s why you are the queen.
DONNA: Oh. Thank you. That’s very kind of you, Jordy. Gosh. I know that Wembley didn’t have a ton to do in this episode, but you and Kanja together are just, you’re so simpatico when Kanja’s assisting you on Wembley. And you just know your character so well. And all your goofiness between takes that just keeps us light and buoyant. And yeah, it’s just a blast. You know, I love you.
JORDAN: Likewise.
DONNA: I love you.
JOE: I love your love. It’s beautiful.
DONNA: We love you too, Joe.
JOE: Oh, thanks. I mean, we didn’t spend months in Calgary together, but I appreciate the love nonetheless.
JORDAN: But we will next time.
JOE: Next time. Next time.
DONNA: Yeah.
JORDAN: Get up there.
JOE: Yep. So Donna and Jordan, I have a question I’d love to ask both of you that we ask to all of our guests on these podcasts. How do you plan to make the world a little fragglier?
JORDAN: So my last answer to this question was more on the serious side. So this time, what I would really like is a giant fraggle pond in every city center where people can climb up high rises and just bomb. [Makes swooping noises] Splash. That’d be nice. That’d be nice.
JOE: Yeah. I love that.
JORDAN: Awful, but nice.
JOE: What flavor’s the water? What flavor is it? When you inevitably get it up your nose?
JORDAN: What flavor’s the water?
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: Ooh. I’m really into strawberries right now.
JOE: Yeah. I love this.
JORDAN: Strawberry water.
JOE: You could jump in with your strawberry hat into the strawberry-flavored Fraggle pond.
JORDAN: Yeah, man. It’d be great. Like grown adults in their suits, climbing out their office windows and diving into a Fraggle pond in the middle of the day. Like, screw this. It’s glorious.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: Love it.
JOE: The world would be such a better place, honestly, if we could just, you know, yippee into a pond.
DONNA: Totally.
JORDAN: Yeah. What are you, Dee?
DONNA: You know, hmm, I’m afraid this may sound like the last answer I gave, but I think it’s taking breaks when you need them. And taking rest when you need it and going into your cave, retreating into your cave when you need to, but then not forgetting to come back out. And reconnecting with people because that is restorative also.
And also I was sort of taking my own caving time for the past couple of months, but Puppet Up shows are coming up and I’m seeing people again and we’re rehearsing together and I can feel like shaking off the cobwebs and getting back into seeing people I love and doing work that I love. And just those creative juices and just being with people and what that gives you as well. So taking breaks and retreating and remembering to come back out into the world.
So serious.
JOE: There’s a, but there’s a balance. There’s a good balance to strike with both of those things with caving away.
JORDAN: Jumping off buildings. [laughs]
JOE: And jumping off buildings into Fraggle ponds. [laughs]
JORDAN: Sorry.
DONNA: Yeah.
JOE: No, I think we all, for our collective mental health, I think that these are both really important things. And I think it’s going to be different for everybody what that balance exactly is, but I know that I personally don’t really identify as an introvert or an extrovert. I’m somewhere in the middle. Ambivert, I think is the word for it.
So like when there’s times when I’m like, I really have to hole away. I really have to not be around people for a while. And then it’s like, I haven’t been around people in a while. I really have to get out there and be really social. And it’s just finding your own way into it to keep yourself from going crazy.
DONNA: Yeah. And I think both Jordan and I, one of the things that Jordan and I have in common is that we both can be very serious people and then we’re both very silly people. Like I remember one of the first conversations I had with you, Jordan, when I just met you and you said, “Okay, when was the last time you cried?”
JOE: Wow.
JORDAN: Ugly cried.
DONNA: This was like the second day I met Jordan and I was like, “Oh, I love you.” Second of all, then you said you prefaced it or you followed it up with, “Yeah, I hate small talk.” Like, oh, okay. Because I probably asked you, “So tell me about your work in Canada,” is probably what I said.
So what brings you here? So tell me about your work with Henson. And he gave me the answer and then he asked me (laughing) when the last time I cried was. (in normal voice) And I was like, “Oh, oh, we’re going here. Yay. Okay.”
JOE: Wow. Yeah, you learn so much more about a person that way than their IMDb page.
JORDAN: You just cut through a lot of stuff and get right to the good stuff.
JOE: Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
DONNA: But I was like, oh my, I love this. This is going to be, this is going to be very interesting and very fun.
JOE: Wow. Well, thank you for that. I’m going to use that line when I meet people from now on.
DONNA: Do it.
JOE: We’ll see what happens. Yeah.
JORDAN: You have to specifically ask them when the last time they ugly cried.
JOE: Yeah.
DONNA: Ugly cried.
JORDAN: Because crying, it’s a big umbrella.
JOE: Yep. Yep. That’s true.
DONNA: That’s right. It was ugly cried. Oh, that’s very different.
JOE: And ugly cries, those are memorable.
JORDAN: And very personal.
DONNA: Very.
JOE: You remember the last time you ugly cried.
DONNA: Yeah.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: Wow. Well, on that lovely note, Donna Kimball, Jordan Lockhart, thank you both so much for being here, for everything you’ve done on Fraggle Rock. And generally just talking about this great episode with me. So thanks for being here.
DONNA: Thank you, Joe.
JORDAN: Thanks for having us, Joe. It’s always a pleasure to be here.
JOE: Of course.
DONNA: Thank you, Jordy.
JORDAN: (in voice of Wembley) Thank you, Dee.
[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]
JOE: Fraggle Talk: the unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast is brought to you by ToughPigs.com. Produced, written and hosted by Joe Hennes. Fraggle Talk art by Dave Hulteen Jr. Fraggle Rock mark and logo, characters and elements are trademarks of the Jim Henson Company. All rights reserved. Transcripts provided by Katilyn Miller.
Fraggle Rock theme song, written by Philip Balsam and Dennis Lee, is used with permission. Special thanks to The Jim Henson company, Apple TV+ and the entire Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock family.
Be sure to follow ToughPigs @ToughPigs on all social media platforms, including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. And please consider supporting us on patreon or by buying merchandise on Teepublic.
For more Fraggle podcast fun, listen to Fraggle Talk: Classic on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time, down at Fraggle Talk.
[Music ends]
