Transcript: Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – “Fraggle Up”

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Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – Episode 23: Fraggle Up

[Fraggle Talk theme music plays] 

JOE HENNES: Hello and welcome to Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock, the unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast brought to you by ToughPigs.com.

This is the podcast where we cover Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock episode by episode, along with the talented producers, performers, writers, and builders who helped put it all together. I am your host, Silly Creature, Joe Hennes.

[Music ends]

JOE: Today we are talking about season 2, episode 10, “Fraggle Up,” in which we have no time for emotions, only action. This week we have two very special guests. First up, back from last week, he performs the voice and face of everyone’s favorite despot, Pa Gorg. It’s Frank Meschkuleit. Hello, Frank.

FRANK MESCHKULEIT: Hey, guys. Thanks for having me, Joe.

JOE: So good to have you back here. And our second guest performs the voice and face of everyone’s favorite despot-in-training, Junior Gorg. It’s Dan Garza. Hello, Dan!

DAN GARZA: What? A despot-in-training? Oh.

JOE: I mean kind of, right? Like he’s the king of the universe.

DAN: Yeah, but.

FRANK: You think that’s bad, I was pretty sure Joe said, “dust bot.” And I was going, “alright.”

JOE: Yeah. Also dust bot. I mean that kind of happens in this episode, right? Like there’s a bit of a dust…bot. I don’t know.

DAN: I would categorize Junior as more like a senior gorg gardener of the grounds. But, you know, despot-in-training? I can work with that.

JOE: Yeah, yeah. I mean if this show follows the pattern of the original Fraggle Rock then we might end this series with Junior graduating into being king of the universe as well, which means that somehow being the gardener is training for that role? Question mark? Maybe not.

DAN: Yeah. Absolutely

FRANK: What if it’s a mashup and he becomes a gardener of the universe?

JOE: Oh.

DAN: Oh. We could do that.

JOE: Yeah, like Swamp Thing.

DAN: No, but you know, there is something to that, Joe.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: Because the way that Junior tends his garden is the way he lives his life. It’s full of care and empathy and treating everything with the appropriate need. The carrot’s different from the potatoes. And the potato’s different from the strawberries and all that stuff. So, yeah, I think they could work together.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: His perspective on gardening and life. I think that’s the next book I’m writing, I guess.

JOE: [laughs] Well, especially because Pa’s a strategy for the garden is just pour Gorgamax on it, which is also very Pa.

DAN: Right.

JOE: Yeah

FRANK: Don’t change. Double up.

JOE: Right, exactly. [laughs]

DAN: Which I actually have Gorgamax here. I have some. I acquired some while on set and I have some Gorgamax here.

JOE: When you say you have some Gorgamax, you have like a jar of dirt? Like what is it?

DAN: No. It’s Gorgamax. It’s all magical. You know, you see it on the show. But I got a little bag of it and I have it here. Yeah.

JOE: Well, that’s kind of nice. Well, that’s a good question. I probably should be asking everybody this as they’re on this podcast, but what did you walk away from with on the set? If you’re able to tell.

DAN: Frank, do you want to go first?

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: How about a prevailing sense of pride for a wonderful show?

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: How about that?

JOE: That’s an answer. 

FRANK: A couple of puppets. [indistinguishable] Yeah.

[crosstalk]

DAN: That’s a great non-binding answer.

FRANK: Yeah, I don’t think I took any physical stuff. I had some bits of the rock that had chipped off when they were breaking everything down, but there’s a point in your life where you go, (in deep voice) I got so much stuff. I don’t know what to do with it. (in normal voice) And just bringing more stuff in seems like a poor idea. Dan, I think you, besides the Gorgamax, you probably have something else you took. Huh?

DAN: I got a few things actually.

FRANK: Told ya.

DAN: When they were tearing down the gorg’s castle for season one, I got a little chunk for me and a chunk for Benny [Durocher]. And so I have that, which is a little bit of the magic. I have some Gorgamax. I was given some radishes by our props team. Yeah, and then people just like, (in deep, slow voice) “Here, I found this. I thought you’d like it.” (in normal voice) I have like a little shadow box that I have here with various things that, yeah, I walked away with.

JOE: It’s nice. That’s nice. So you guys deserve that and more for sure. But yeah, maybe walking out with puppets. That’s a bit much.

DAN: And yeah, I took duplicates of all of the puppets. All of them.

JOE: Yeah, right.

FRANK: Actually, there is something I took. There were beautiful posters on the wall, and while everyone was busy, I just went and hogged the best ones I could find.

JOE: Like real posters or props?

FRANK: They were show posters. There’s one back here. I don’t think you can see it because I have to use my phone today. I have no Wi-Fi. There it is.

DAN: There it is.

FRANK: You see that little. There’s a Boober poster there.

JOE: Oh yeah, yeah. You’re pointing at a Boober poster.

FRANK: Yeah, there’s another one downstairs that just magically made its way into my suitcase. 

DAN: We had the production team would put those all along the corridors. So you’d walk in and it wasn’t just some stale soundstage. You would walk through the hallways and they had printed out either promotional posters or things that we had shot earlier in the season. And it was fantastic. You walk in and you just felt there was, you know, big one of Jim. Yeah, it was fantastic to walk in and be welcomed by that and have a, it felt like you’re walking into your home and not just a workplace, you know?

JOE: Yeah. Especially for those of us who our homes are already decorated by like big posters of Jim Henson and Fraggles and stuff like that [laughs]

DAN: Right. [laughs]

JOE: So you two are two out of the three gorgs. Speaking, of course, specifically about most everything above the neck because there’s other performers for the bodies. I’d love to hear more about how the two of you were together and play off each other when you’re on set.

FRANK: Okay, well, I will say that working with Dan was great because what we would do before a scene was we would rehearse without the gorgs’ heads on so that they were just in the suit. So they could see us and we could see them. Usually Dan or I would go, “Oh, you know what would be great for this scene? When Junior comes over and la, la, la and Pa hits him in the head with a shovel” or whatever the bit is. We’d work something out quick between us because one of us had inspiration and then we’d go and fill in our folk in the suit. Andy Hayward in the case of Pa. And then we’d walk it through in the rehearsal and try and make that stick. 

And because Dan and I would stand beside each other when we were performing the voice and the face off camera, we could modify that last minute and we had a mic connection to an earpiece to our suit performers, where we could say, “Andy hold off until Junior says, ‘Oh, shucks.’ And then do that thing that we talked about.” So there’s always that way to work to improve things and to find the funny in it up until the last minute. And Dan stands great for that. I love working with Dan.

DAN: Yeah, likewise with Frank and Aymee [Garcia] for that matter. It’s a tremendous collaboration between six consummate professionals. I’ve included myself in that mix.

JOE: As well as you should. Yes.

DAN: Thanks, I appreciate that. My therapist says the same thing. So that’s good  encouragement. But yeah, through the six of us, making this family unit cohesive and feel completely real. It’s all collaborative. So Frank and I will be, we’ll be whispering at the same time that, Andy, Ingrid [Hansen] and, and Benny are, they’re all conspiring on their end. And then we come together and we coalesce with this thing that ends up being living, breathing and quite natural.

And kudos to our suit performers for rolling with some of the improvisational punches that we do. Like the occasional, [sighs] or the, “eh, eh, eh, eh.” And being able to like, oh, it just felt right in the moment. And having that bond with our counterparts allows us to feel safe enough to improvise things that just feel right in the scene. Like a reaction to something or a little wiggle, a little dance, something like that.

And working with Frank, because he’s not only a wealth of Fraggle knowledge, having been in Junior in the original series, but also as just a very intuitive and technical performer, I’ve grown by leaps and bounds just by sheer osmosis.

FRANK: Just by smelling me.

[Joe laughs]

DAN: Yeah, yeah, no, Frank has a wide range of smells. Are you still going to bottle that? You still going to bottle that?

FRANK: Well, we haven’t found glass materials strong enough to contain all the odors, but we are working on it. And hey, just to interrupt, there was something we used to say on set with the gorg performers between the guy in the suit or the person in the suit, excuse me. And the operator from outside was two brains, one straw. So the notion is that the body was driving the dialogue forward just as much as the voice and the animation on the face was.

And it’s kind of like, I thought about this a lot since then too, it’s like you’re pulling me, I’m pulling you, you’re pulling me, I’m pulling you. And when that happens, it’s indistinguishable that there is one person operating the voice and face and a separate entire human operating inside the body. And I think we hit it almost, well, let’s say quite often, but when you look at it really technically like, I’m sure Dan’s the same way. You can’t help but go, “Oh, we just missed that beat by a fraction of a second.” I doubt people watching it would, but it’s really a critical component of making the suit work is that…what’s the word? Like the symbiotic relationship between the two people.

And when it works, it’s perfect. And you don’t even notice it because it’s just working. So two brains, one straw.

DAN: Yeah, you got a hat that says that, don’t you?

FRANK: Yeah.

DAN: No, I got you that hat, remember?

FRANK: Oh, yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. And I said that twice in exactly the same cadence. I don’t know why. But yeah, I do. I have that hat. I do. Thank you, Dan.

JOE: It sounds kind of dirty if you don’t, like if I saw you on the street and I didn’t know what that meant, “two brains, one straw,” I might think that’s a little dirty.

[crosstalk]

JOE: Not to discourage you.

DAN: Oh, yeah, Johnny’s hat says “I see heads, guys.” And he’s like, “I can’t wear this in public without having to explain it to everyone.”

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: Yeah, yeah, I had to masking tape it out, but it’s still a nice hat.

[Dan laughs]

JOE: Great. So yeah, but you also bring up a couple of good points here with, you know, Frank, you, as we’ve established, you played the body of Junior gorg in the fifth, the final season of the original Fraggle Rock. Dan, do you have a similar experience just to like know what it’s like being that kind of suit puppetry performer just so that you can, to help you get into like Ben Durocher’s head a little bit more?

DAN: Yeah, I mean, my other experience with, because I played the body of Dunk on Splash and Bubbles. So being besties is kind of a cool thing to bring into it. I did some suit performing in my day. So I have some point of reference of how claustrophobic it is and how you have to just roll with the punches. And what you can see is what you can see and all of that. I was determined to get into the suit season two, which again didn’t happen, Frank. It was like one of those things. I was like, “Oh yeah, now I can get in the suit.” And the stars just didn’t align. So if we get season three, I definitely want to get in and feel that 18 pound helmet on my head.

FRANK: And as I recall, I took a bullet for you there, Dan, and I jumped in the suit. So that you and Ben could get a picture of animated Junior instead of a deflated sack of gorg. 

DAN: You did. [laughs]

FRANK: And when they put the suit, you know, put the shoes and put the thing and put my arms and the hands. All right, this all feels good. And then the head came on. I was like, that’s a little heavier than I recall. And they started to close it. And on the last snap, I was like, “Yeah, just leave that one open. Okay?” I just, I couldn’t. It was getting really closed.

I have done a ton of body suits, but that was a lot of weight. Hats off to Ben, man. That was a lot of stuff to spin around on your head and nod up and down. And curiously, though, when they switched the head on, and I could hear the servos, because they’re right by your ears and all around your head and all you hear is [makes mechanical sounding noises] It totally calmed me out. It was like this zen track. I was like, “Oh, yeah, this. I get it.”

And then I was okay. And we got some nice pictures of you and Ben and Junior. So thanks for letting me in there. 

DAN: It’s like you’re in the ocean. [Makes the sound of waves]

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: [laughs] Exactly.

JOE: Gorg white noise, there.

DAN: Yeah.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: Those servos in your ears. So Dan, throughout this podcast, that we’ve been recording here, a lot of people have been crediting you with some of the more fun background gags. Like I’ll point out, oh, there’s someone doing something funny back there. And they’ll be like, that was Dan Garza. Is there a secret to what you do to like, find that sort of fun without upstaging whatever’s happening in the foreground?

DAN: Absolutely. My intention is to upstage.

JOE: [laughs] Okay. There it is.

DAN: I know I’ve gotten to that line when I hear or someone approaches me, because they normally don’t like, (in mock yelling) “Hey, whoever’s doing that crap in the back, stop.” (in normal voice) Normally it’ll be either one of our assistant directors or one of our captains comes up and like, (whispers) “Hey, can you just tone that down just a little bit?”

(in normal voice) And my whole focus is whatever’s happening right now, right here and now with this background character is his entire, or their entire world. That’s all they’re doing. You know, whether if it’s an inkspot lounging on a bed of rocks while young Uncle Matt is becoming the center of attention. Or it’s a critter that is falling asleep somewhere and has just had a really long day. You just gotta find the little bit of life and stick to it. And whatever else is happening may or may not affect this character’s world.

So it’s just, I like those little snapshots or vignettes of like, oh, yeah, that’s just normal life for that critter. And then, you know, every once in a while I’ll find the funny in it. But, you know, I look back and I think, “Oh, shoot, I could have done this.” Or, “Ah, damn it. They didn’t take that shot.” I worked so hard to thread that needle and it got, yeah. And, and you have to, you know, not everything is gonna make it to screen. So you do as much as you can.

FRANK: There was a prevailing attitude that bled out of the original series as well, which was that this is, it’s not just the Fraggle Five and a bunch of people zombie walking back and forth. It’s a village. Everybody has a task. And so when we were working with the, the great Calgary puppeteers who we had the delight of working with, I would say to them, “Look, no matter what the scene, your guy’s got a goal. He’s getting from A to B or he’s thinking about what he’s…” You know, have a conscious effort, make a conscious effort to have a task. If it’s picking up apples, if you’re tickling your friend with a feather, or maybe you’re just walking through frame. That can happen as well.

But we used to work really hard when I was on the original series, and I was playing deep background, similar to what Dan was saying, we’d make whole little stories. One guy’s leaning on a shovel. The guy beside him is digging a hole. When the guy’s done digging a hole, he walks away. The guy leaning on the shovel takes two steps forward and drops down the hole. 

And so there were all these bits of schtick that were going on in the background that I thought were absolutely delightful. And I think they fill out the story because you can watch Back to the Rock and you see stuff happening in the background and say, “Did you just? Did he just?” And it’s great. And that’s how life in a village works.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: Dan is notorious for finding the best spot to park his inkspot and milk it for some juicy comedy goodness.

JOE: Yeah, and for me, especially where this is maybe my third or fourth rewatch of each of these episodes, and I get to really spend more time looking at what’s happening in the background. And it’s such a joy for me. And it’s so much more interesting than if the Fraggles were just, “Peas and carrots, peas and carrots, watermelon, watermelon,” in the background. And do either of you have any favorite moments that maybe even if they didn’t make it into the final episode where you’re like, “Oh, I came up with this really great story. Or I came up with this really great thing that I could do with the puppet.”

FRANK: I got one. I got one just thinking about Dan and the inkspots. Forget the song. It’s Red’s song. She’s running through the rock. It’s a topsy-turvy race? I think something like that.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Topsy-turvy-thon.

FRANK: Thon. That’s it. So it’s a big race. Red’s gotta win because Red’s Red. And Red’s way ahead, but everyone’s kind of hot on her heels. And Large Marvin comes through frame and he’s got his track pants on and his track suit. And he walks up to an inkspot who’s holding a glass of water. And he grabs the whole inkspot by the back of the neck and then drinks the water out of the jug that the inkspot is holding and sets it back down. I think you were on that inkspot, Dan.

DAN: I don’t recall that. It’s possible, but I won’t take credit for it. No, I refuse. [laughs]

JOE: Hysterical.

FRANK: But that was good. That was a fun bit.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: It was a good bit.

DAN: Yeah. One thing, there was that one inkspot that’s like feather dusting. Just the whole scene, he’s just feather–I don’t remember what episode it is. But he’s just feather dusting. He’s in the foreground. And Johnny was like, “Go to town!” And one thing that didn’t make it was, he’s dusting, he’s dusting, he’s dusting, and when he finishes, he puts the feather duster under himself and he flies away like a witches broom.

JOE: Like a witch’s broom? [laughs]

DAN: [laughs] Yeah. I don’t think that made it. It didn’t make it. But I was like, “Oh yeah.” And they were like, “Maybe that’s going a little too far.” But, you know.

FRANK: He’s playing quidditch.

DAN: Yeah. [laughs]

JOE: Honestly, there’s magic all over Fraggle Rock. Why not a witch inkspot?

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: I’m here for it. All right, so speaking of Fraggle magic, let’s talk about this episode. So we open in Doc’s Workshop. Doc is acting suspiciously nice to Sprocket because she’s got news for him that he doesn’t want to hear. Mrs. Shimmelfinney has jury duty and asks if they could watch her cat Fluffinella.

As many people know, Fluffinella is a character from the original series who appeared in three episodes of the old Fraggle Rock, starting with the episode “Wembley and the Gorgs.” Now Fluffinella is kind of meant to not be seen, but have you ever seen a picture of the original Fluffinella puppet? Like it’s horrifying.

DAN: I held the original Fluffinella because as Kristi Holt was rebuilding for the new season, I got to hold it. And it actually felt like a taxidermied cat that had come back to life.

JOE: [laughs] Yeah.

DAN: And then was, yeah, yeah. It was frightening, frightening.

JOE: And like put together wrong. Like the eyes don’t look right and the mouth is too wide. 

DAN: Oh, I love ugly puppets.

JOE: Yeah. It doesn’t even look very Hensony, but it’s also appropriately terrifying.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: And so that Fluffinella was performed by Karen Prell. Do you know who performs Fluffinella in this episode?

DAN: Ingrid Hansen.

FRANK: Ingrid Hansen.

JOE: She’s good at her job that Ingrid Hansen.

FRANK: She did a great job. Whatever you put Ingrid on, puppet wise, she’s alarmingly good.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah. And what we see here is Ingrid as Fluffinella is just kind of taking the tail and having, like all we see is the tail walking into Doc’s workshop, which is a fun effect.

DAN: It’s very Jaws-esque. Yeah.

JOE: It is. Well, especially because like when Fluffinella eventually attacks Sprocket, each time she attacks Sprocket, it’s horrifying. It really is scary in that Jaws kind of way. Like there’s the one shot where Sprocket’s behind the couch and like he thinks that it’s Fluffinella.

DAN: The shadow scene?

JOE: Yeah, right before the shadow scene where he sees the tail like kind of directly in front of him and then the tail disappears and then he gets attacked. But before we get into all that stuff, one thing that I have to give some props to here is whoever’s costuming Sprocket in these scenes. Because first we see him wearing like aviator sunglasses and a denim vest trying to look so cool. And then later with like a muscle shirt and a bandana, kind of this Hulk Hogan look. It’s so cool. Like so deliberately uncool, but cool. I love it.

DAN: Thanks to our Wranglers and our folks in wardrobe for making those things happen.

FRANK: Yeah, channeling a little Fonzie at first.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: Before he goes full WWF.

JOE: That’s right. And like learning new ways to, I don’t know. The theme that we’ve got here throughout this episode is toxic masculinity and Sprocket is like trying to figure out like (in deep voice) how to be a man. And stand up to this cat. (in normal voice) And he’s working out with the dog toys, like they’re weights and then he puts on like this air of cool. And then like he still is freaked out. He can’t tamper that down, that fear.

And yeah, as you said. We’ll kind of jump around with this plot a little bit. But we see, you know, first Fluffinella attacks him and then later on in the episode, Fluffinella attacks again. And it’s this great shadow puppet play where like the light’s shining on them. Which just to see any sort of Henson property tackling different types of puppetry is always satisfying because it’s not just like Jim Henson style monitor puppets.

I really appreciate that. And to show something a little bit different, especially when we’re not supposed to see Fluffinella. I feel like it’s really effective. Were either of you on any of this Doc and Sprocket stuff for this episode?

DAN: I wasn’t.

FRANK: I think I was helping out with Sprocket. It was mainly Johnny Tartaglia, or as I call him, Johnny Tarfragglia.

DAN: Oooh.

JOE: Oooooh!

FRANK: And Jordan Lockhart and I think Karen Prell was in there as well. Ingrid was on Fluffinella. I just want to point out there’s a beautiful shot that sets this up where Fluffinella is kind of stalking Sprocket and then Sprocket loses track of where Fluffinella is and then hears something. His ears go up and he looks up and there’s a shot of Fluffinella flying into camera just before…

JOE: That’s so cool. I love that shot.

FRANK: Just before she lands on Sprocket. It’s a great shot. Sets the whole thing up. And then of course, Doc has her headphones on. Is listening to music and doesn’t get that there’s chaos, bedlam, cats and dog fighting.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: That’s a terrific scene though. The whole thing [indistinguishable]

DAN: Frank, do you know if they shot that straight ahead or was it in reverse? Like Wizard of Oz style?

FRANK: Yeah, honestly, Dan, I wasn’t there for that. That was a Fluffinella only shot. I should have looked at it more closely. Because the feeling I had when I saw the shot, just when I watched the episode again this morning, was that there was a ceiling, which there wasn’t. So I’m not quite sure if that was comped after or I’d have to look at it again.

But it’s very effective because you got the feeling that this cat had literally clawed its way up the walls, hung by its claws on the ceiling and then just dropped down on top of poor Sprocket.

JOE: And like specifically to terrorize Sprocket. Like it’s not like she’s trying to get anything from him. She just wants to mess with him.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: So cruel.

DAN: The reason that I asked is because it’s so perfectly framed, like you can see everything. And it’s kind of like, I brought up Wizard of Oz when they dropped the house, where they painted the floor of the soundstage and put the camera on the ceiling and then dropped the house. And then they just did it in reverse. So when the house comes down it’s that.

So I was wondering, well maybe they shot it in reverse because the framing is just perfect. Unless they dropped it just really got it after take after take. Because it’s gorgeous. The framing is perfect.

JOE: I can see them, I can see how easy it might be to string up the puppet because it’s just an armatured cat. You don’t need a hand in there. And just put the camera straight up, drop it, you can drop it 20 times within a minute until you get it right. But also, to your point, it would be so much easier to just put Fluffinella on there, hoist, and then…

DAN: Yoink it.

JOE: Yeah, yoink it. Later on, Doc and Sprocket have this big heart to heart. And we also get a great shot of Sprocket has been relegated to the loft area. And we get to see an armature– I’m sorry, not an armature, but radio controlled Sprocket puppet.

FRANK: Sprocket.

JOE: What did you call it?

FRANK: I said Sprocket.

JOE: Oh, you just said Sprocket. For some reason, I thought you said some sort of like portmanteau name for Sprocket, like the RC-controlled Sprocket. Like that’s the rocket Sprocket, which is a totally different thing. But yeah, we see the radio controlled Sprocket, which again, like so many different puppetry styles. I love seeing all that in this episode.

And they have a conversation about like, you’ve got to admit when you’re afraid, and etc, etc. And like, also, you know, we’ll get into this later with the Fraggles, but like Sprocket is very much justified in being afraid, because not only is he being attacked by this cat, but Doc at one point was not really much of a help because she had her headphones on. So he kind of feels like he’s relying on himself to be safe.

We know that even if he goes up to the loft, that Fluffinella can get up there. She can climb on the ceiling. Like, she’s a monster. And then, like in the middle of this whole thing, while Doc is trying to explain this, admitting your feelings to Sprocket, we get this amazing shot of Fluffinella smacking against the window from outside. And then slowly sliding down. It is chilling. [laughs]

FRANK: Yes.

JOE: I love it.

DAN: Yeah, it’s beautiful because you can see that it’s basically two takes, because when she first hits that window, her mouth is closed. And then when she’s sliding down, her mouth, it reveals. So I love that slow build of like, shunk, look at my eyes, look at my eyes. And now look at my teeth. Look at how I slide down this window.

FRANK: Oh, and then there’s that little nice bit of that window squeaking.

DAN: Yeah. [Makes screeching sound]

FRANK: As it goes down.  Yeah. That’s great.

JOE: So yeah, so now we’re all afraid of Fluffinella. I think if we’re going to talk about our feelings here, I will admit that Fluffinella scares me. I don’t like it.

FRANK: Yeah. Although I would watch the spinoff series were there one.

JOE: A Fluffinella spinoff.

FRANK: Fluffinella Back to the Rock.

DAN: Sure.

JOE: Whoa. Yeah, we’ll kind of explore what happens in the Shimmelfinney household.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: And because we never see Mrs. Shimmelfinney and we barely see Fluffinella, it’s just an empty set for 22 minutes. [laughs]

DAN: Nothing but feet.

JOE: That’s right.

DAN: Feet and tail.

JOE: [laughs] People calling out from off stage. I’d watch it.

DAN: It’s like a Yule log, you know?

[Joe laughs]

DAN: Just like, “Rawr!” All of a sudden on Halloween. Rawr! [Sings the Jaws theme]

JOE: So, cut over to the Fraggles in the Great Hall. Gobo is calling a very serious meeting to discuss the radish situation. It is heavy duty, tutti fruity, so he says. I love that all the Fraggles are there, including the Grizzard and Lanford and Gluey Rudey, who, Frank, that’s one of your characters, Gluey Rudey.

FRANK: (in voice of Gluey Rudey) Yeah, it sure is.

JOE: [laughs] Do you want to talk.

FRANK: Yeah, he’s actually one of the silliest, funnest puppet to do, because it’s just a little, like a little rubber finger with a (laughing) face and moving mouth. (in normal voice) And there’s so much to get out of it, despite the simplicity of the operation. It’s a single rod with a trigger. But you push up on the rod, the head goes up, and you pull down, it kind of scrunches up. And you move the rod side to side. He’s like a half a worm. And then he’s got these tentacles that are stuck on the rock. He’s fun to do.

JOE: I love that. He’s the kind of character…There’s been a lot of characters we’ve noticed where the workshop has obviously built an entire puppet just to be seen on screen for a few seconds and that could have been Gluey Rudey. But I love that he is making appearances throughout this season because he’s just a little guy, and he’s rude. That’s his whole thing.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: He’s just rude, and he’s a little.

FRANK: When he shows up, when he sticks on Mokey’s tail, when Mokey comes running into her and Red’s room, and he’s like, (in voice of Gluey Rudey) “This is all you got? Not much room for two, huh? Losers” (in normal voice) You know, he’s really like…

[All laugh]

FRANK: Not really impressed with the scale of their dwelling, which is such a weird thing for a little two-inch worm to pick up on.

JOE: Yeah, especially when… Yeah, not much room? Like he’s got all the room he needs.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: He’s only this big. [laughs]

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: So, Boober introduces Cotterpin into the meeting to everybody. And this is such a great moment. This is definitely a series high for me is Mokey is excited to see Cotterpin. And she’s like, “Cotterpin, how you living, girl?” And Cotterpin’s like, “Have we met?”

FRANK: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a funny scene.

JOE: And just that little exchange of like, “Oh, we’re very close.” And Cotterpin’s like, “We are?” And Mokey says, “Well, we should be.” And it’s like, I love, it makes so much sense for these two characters because Mokey is so like, “Oh, everyone loves everyone.” And Cotterpin’s like, “Business only.” But also knowing they’re both performed by Donna. In the old show they were both performed by Karen, excuse me…Um, uh, oh my god.

FRANK: Kathy Mullen.

JOE: Kathy Mullen. Thank you. Yeah, they’re both performed by Kathy Mullen. And like, yes, they should be friends because there’s all this behind the scenes stuff.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: Just get a little nod, a little fourth wall pushing, I guess.

DAN: They inhabit the same brain space, yeah.

JOE: Yes, exactly.

DAN: They’re roomies.

JOE: They’re roomies? Oh, in the brain.

DAN: Yeah, in Donna’s brain.

JOE: Two brains, one straw.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Right. In a different way. Two straws, one brain?

FRANK: One of those.

JOE: Right. Yeah, sure. So Cotterpin introduces her idea of using these hydroponics that we learned about in a recent episode to grow new radishes. And I love that Icy Joe is, she’s so excited to see that the Fraggles and Doozers are working together. And she says, “And to think, in my day, we ate them.” [laughs]

FRANK: I’m really surprised that line stayed in. I really am. And then she goes, “Oh, retracted.”

JOE: Retracted. Yeah. Yeah. Just kidding, everybody.

FRANK: But it paints a picture.

JOE: Yeah. We’re learning so much about what life was like in Icy Joe’s time.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah, they were omnivores at the very least.

FRANK: That must be the pre-radish days. I get feel the Fraggles are, maybe the Fraggles were like scavengers, and they just eat whatever’s there. It just happens to be a bunch of radishes in our epoch of Fraggle storytelling. But Icy Joe, you know, that would be a biography I’d read. The early days.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: You know, the whole– that statement, like, I went into this whole other world of, “Well, are they savory or are they sweet? Are they gelatinous?”

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: The same throughout. Is it like a donut or what? Yeah, just trying to figure out.

FRANK: And what did you, what’s the solution? What’d you come up with, Dan?

JOE: Yeah, what does a Doozer taste like?

DAN: It depends on the Doozer. I honestly think it depends on the Doozer. Like, the ones that are more sedentary, like the ones that work in the village are probably sweeter than the ones that are out on the construction sites.

FRANK: Yeah, they’d be more sinewy. More muscley.

DAN: Yeah. More sinewy and all that. But yeah. I don’t know.

JOE: Yeah, I mean, look. We know that like there’s a hard shell that you have to get through, which is their helmet. It’s like a nut.

FRANK: Yeah.

DAN: [laughs] Oh no. No. No.

JOE: [laughs] I like the idea that they’re gelatinous. I like that you said that. I can see it being kind of like a flan, maybe.

DAN: Maybe.

JOE: Like something you just take a bite and go, “Ooooh. Like this one’s got nugat.”

FRANK: I imagine marshmallow.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: Oh, yeah, yeah.

FRANK: I kind of love them. I don’t want to think of them as sinewy food stuffs. I would think of them as more sweet and yielding.

DAN: Like a Stay Puft Marshmallow men. Yeah.

JOE: Maybe one of the reasons that they started using food materials to build was to be like, “Hey, hey, Fraggles. Eat these constructions instead of us.” [laughs]

DAN: Right. Yeah.

JOE: Wow.

DAN: Yeah. This is the thing. This is what you guys do. Yeah.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sounds right. [laughs] (in a smooth announcer voice) Welcome, ladies and gentlemen to another episode of Joe Hennes: Cooking with Doozers.

JOE: It’s a cookbook!

DAN: (in a wavering voice) It’s a cookbook!

[All laugh]

JOE: Oh. Okay. Well.

FRANK: Glad we got that out of our system.

JOE: Yeah. That was really important. This is what this podcast is all–This is the main reason we have this podcast. To ask these difficult questions.

So anyway, Cotterpin says that the radishes won’t be ready for another 40 or 50 helmet months, which is appropriately a fuzzy amount of time so that you guys could just decide whenever you want that to be. And like, yep, that was a helmet month. It’s done.

And so everyone’s looking to Gobo as their leader. And so Gobo, to inspire everybody, reads his Uncle Traveling Matt Postcard. And I love that like, oh, first he starts to talk about how his Uncle Traveling Matt discovered radishes and apparently this is a speech he’s given many times because Red is perfectly lip syncing the whole thing, which is great. Just absolutely great. And also the Storyteller’s behind them and she is eating this up. She loves hearing a Matt story. She loves that guy.

The Matt Postcard, he’s at a water park. And again, talking about puppetry styles, when he goes down the slide, we’ve got him as the hand puppet. We’ve got it where they’ve armatured a puppet and we’ve just yeeted it down the slide. We’ve got a composite image from his perspective where you see his feet as they’re going down the slide. And then we get another one where we see him from the side. And someone’s obviously got their hand in the puppet and they’re puppeteering him as he’s sliding down.

And it’s so effective. Like all these different things coming together. I love it.

FRANK: The magic of editing.

JOE: Yeah, really. Did either of you get to work on any of these location shots for Traveling Matt?

DAN: Not I.

FRANK: No, all the location stuff with Matt was Kevin Clash.

JOE: Mmhmm.

FRANK: Except for I shot one on a ski hill, I think, with Matt. And then when Matt came to the rock, I would do Matt, and Dave would post everything, of course. He’d post the audio. But it’s funny because that same story from this episode came up on the weekend at DragonCon, and Kevin was saying how he’s not really a friend of the water. And it was really daunting for him to get this puppet on and go down this water slide over and over and over. Despite six year-old kids are like, (in high-pitched voice) “Come on Kevin. No problem. Get down there.”

JOE: Yeah, really.

FRANK: (in normal voice) But he did a great job and post did great job, as you said, collating all those different styles. And it’s very effective. My favorite is when he comes up on the edge of the pool and he’s totally drenched, right?

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: And then the next shot they’re pulling a stuffed, soaking wet Traveling Matt out of the pool. I think that’s a nice bit of editing as well. But his face when his mustache is hanging and all soaked is beautiful.

DAN: Did you ask Kevin if it was a life vest or a pool floatie that he wore down that tube?

JOE: Did he have like the inflatable things on his arms?

DAN: Oh yeah, maybe.

FRANK: Water wings.

DAN: Yeah, little Elmo water wings. [laughs]

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: Yeah. He probably had some on him. What the heck.

JOE: Well, that also reminds me of the story from the original series where Traveling Matt was on the roller coaster and Dave Goelz apparently hates roller coasters. And they had him on that roller coaster. And that great shot of, he’s got Matt sitting next to him. We see Dave, full-face, Matt sitting next to him and a fake arm behind Matt so it doesn’t necessarily look like he’s puppeteering the puppet.

And it was basically, I think, a practical joke from Jerry Juhl who knew this about Dave, and was like, “Well, I’m going to make you ride a roller coaster 30 times to get these shots.

FRANK: Dave tells this story. I hope he doesn’t mind if I tell it. About how every week they’d finish a Matt segment and Dave would be like, “Oh, I hated that. That was just really awful. Never get worse than that.” And then the next week they’d be in a pig sty with like (laughing) an 1800 pound sow next to him (in normal voice) And he’d have to lie in the mud or whatever. Whatever the case was. I agree. I think it looks like Jerry was just trying to see “Well, what else would really bother Dave? Let’s throw him out of an airplane.” Or whatever it was. And Dave would do it because he’s a great sport.

JOE: So the moral of the story here is if you’re performing Traveling Matt, don’t admit to the writers what you don’t like because they will put that into a script. They will make you do that thing.

DAN: Or admit really, really comfortable things.

[Joe and Frank make sounds of agreement]

DAN: Like, “Oh I hate Hawaii. Hawaii is terrible. Oh my god.”

FRANK: Lying on pillows. Yeah. I hate when there’s really good food in front of me and I have to eat it until I’m pleasantly full. I don’t like that at all.

[Dan and Joe laugh]

JOE: Smart. Strategy.

FRANK: Reverse psychology.

JOE: Matt sends back a towel as his gift to the Fraggles. And he thinks it’s a cape so he has coined the term superhero. No one’s ever used that word before. Before Matt. He made that up. And in the postcard, he says, “Push down feelings. Never show weakness. And Fraggle up.” Which Gobo takes to heart. What good advice? To push down your feelings, never show weakness and fraggle up. That’s going to come up a lot in this episode.

Gobo puts on the cape like a superhero cape and Wembley…I like this too. Wembley asks if he could be his helper. Like the guy who stands to the side of the hero within kicking distance. And his little leg goes up. Like a side foot. [laughs] Wembley is good at naming things.

DAN: He’s great.

JOE: Like shirt. Yeah.

FRANK: I gotta say, Wembley has a couple of buttons, a bunch of buttons in this episode that are just perfect.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: That whole side-eye thing when he goes to say the same thing as as Gobo and it’s always something else. Gobo’s like, (imitating Gobo’s voice) “And now it’s time to…” (in normal voice) You know, dig. And then Wembley goes, “Dance. Yeah, no. Dig. Yeah. Right with you.”

JOE: Yep.

FRANK: And he gets his eyes moving. They’re beautiful little bits of performance.

DAN: And it’s precise. That eye movement is so precise. It’s spot on focus. It’s great.

JOE: And there’s a thing that he’s doing. I can’t really explain it. And it may be just my imagination but I think it’s just Jordan being a great puppeteer. Is like Wembley will do this thing where the eyes will turn toward Gobo as he’s saying, “dance,” and then, “dance, right,” and then they’ll go away from Gobo to be like, “Of course that’s what…we were on the same page, of course.”

FRANK: We’re on the same page.

JOE: And then the eyes will go straight ahead and it doesn’t look like they’re just in the resting spot. For some reason, to me it looks like they’re like headlights. Like going straight ahead in an unnatural way where he’s just like, “Yep.” I don’t know if I can explain that well at all.

FRANK: Yeah. You did explain it.

JOE: But yeah, he’s just doing a great job with that eye mech.

FRANK: Totally. Totally.

JOE: I love it. I love what he’s doing with Wembley in this season. It’s fun stuff. Yeah. So Gobo says, “We’re gonna Fraggle up. No more meetings. Just action. So let’s go to the Trash Heap.” And of course, he should know if he’s going to the Trash Heap, that will be another meeting. It is action to get there but like no more meetings. Let’s go have a meeting.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Good strategy.

DAN: Corporate guy. Corporate guy. Absolutely.

JOE: Right. This meeting could have been an email, Gobo.

DAN: Let’s have a meeting about having no more meetings.

JOE: [laughs] Right. In the gorgs’ garden, here’s Pa and Junior. That’s you guys. And they’re trying to figure out how to save their dying garden. Junior suggests that the fraggles could help. And he still has those little clappy hands that Gobo gave him earlier in the season. And Pa just shuts this whole thing down. He says, “Our ancestors would not have it the only clappy hands you need are these.” And puts his hands up for double high five. And Junior is very susceptible and he goes for the double high five. He throws away the clappy hands. He’s all in with his dad.

And it’s interesting to see. There’s this long overarching story throughout the season for both Pa and Junior, where Pa is continually doing this toxic masculinity stuff that’s really coming to a head in this episode. But Junior’s really taking in so much of this generational abuse of like. I’ve always listened to my Pa so I’m gonna listen to my Pa now and without questioning whether this is healthy or not.

So I imagine that’s difficult for you guys, especially if you find yourself kind of filming out of order a little bit to kind of fit in those character beats for this very slow 13 episode arc. Is that accurate for you two?

DAN: Yeah. As an actor,I have to justify why things are happening. Not just because it’s in the script but because it has to make sense to me. And Frank and I had these conversations. Why would Junior just go with it and discard such a thing that he’s held. His pivot isn’t just laissez faire. It’s not just like, “Oh okay, whatever.” There’s something behind it.

And the thing behind it is that he’s been getting Pa’s attention out of fear for forever and when Pa makes this change to actually treat Junior as a son versus as a servant, Junior is all ears. Because it’s something he’s thirsty for. It’s something that he wants. He wants to be accepted by his father. He wants all of these things. The things that he’s giving him are the things that he desires.

And it’s not like some nefarious plan on Pa’s end. It’s just, (imitating Pa Gorg’s voice) “Oh we’re gonna do this or whatever.” (in normal voice) Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know how you do your Pa there Frank.

FRANK: That was good, honestly.

DAN: Oh, thanks. But Junior is more doing it because he’s being accepted by his dad.

JOE: Right.

DAN: Not because he’s alienating Gobo but because he’s actually making physical contact with his father. Like hit the supportive, (imitating Pa Gorg’s voice) “These are the only needs the hands you need.” (in normal voice) Or whatever it is and then the nose bump thing which we decided, oh yeah. Junior’s aim is completely off because it’s still the innocence of his enthusiasm. I think that’s where it lies for me. Frank, where do you stand on this?

FRANK: I think you’re right about Junior, Dan. For Pa, Pa is a classic bully and as long as he’s got someone to bully, that’s his track. And we find out later. in later episodes, that he will keep that up until there is literally, he’s ruined it all. He’s destroyed it and only then it’s like, you know when somebody’s…Well. I’m thinking of a bad example so I won’t go into to that. But you kind of gotta hit bottom before you can get your traction and crawl back out.

So Pa’s motivations to me seem pretty consistent. Whatever idea’s in his head, (in voice of Pa Gorg) “That’s what we’re doing, son.” (in normal voice) You know, right away. And he counts on Junior to be right there with him because he has been, all the time. Even when Ma says, “I don’t know, Junior. You might want to think about that.” He looks around and goes I’ll go with Pa. For now. For now.

DAN: Yeah.

FRANK: So Pa’s pretty steady in his (laughing) almost abusive relationship with this wife and his son. (in normal voice) And as long as Junior goes along with it, there’s no reason for Pa to stop, right? Because two’s more than one.

DAN: Yeah, I agree.

FRANK: So it’s pretty cool later, when he does do a gear change. Especially right near the end of the series of season two. Not end of the series. End of season two. It’s really intriguing to me to see where they’ll take Pa and Junior and Ma because something big happens, as you know, that’s gonna rock their world. And Pa’s already on his butt because he’s lost it all. He ruined the garden. He jeopardized his marriage. His relationship with Junior has changed. And he realizes that it’s because of him that this has all happened. So where’s his redemption? Let’s find out. Season three.

JOE: And you made me think of something else, too, while you were…

FRANK: Rambling.

JOE: …explaining Junior and Pa’s relationship is that Pa– excuse me, Junior has this need for approval from his father which I think a lot of us, especially men, young men feel is this weird…

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: …we need approvals from our dads. But he doesn’t have that kind of relationship with Ma Gorg. And we actually don’t see, in Back to the Rock at least, we don’t see a lot of Junior and Ma together. So I’m curious how that’s going to change if we get a season three as Ma continues to take a larger role within the family and within the kingdom of the universe. And to see if Junior and Ma can really share some of this. And to see what their relationship is like when Pa’s not around.

DAN: I kind of beg to differ a little.

JOE: Oh, yeah?

DAN: Just because, Ma’s the one especially when we get to episodes a little farther into the to the series. Junior’s birthday and all of that. Where am I in the timeline here? I don’t remember. But yeah.

JOE: Junior’s birthday happened before this episode. Yes.

DAN: Before this episode.

JOE: Yep. Yep.

DAN: So her acceptance of Junior and who he is and what he does, she just loves her little man. She loves her little boy. And she encourages and she recognizes all of these things. The fact that they don’t have a lot of  me-time so much yet, I think is a great setup for season three.

JOE: Yes.

DAN: But she supports him. She loves him. So he doesn’t have any of that. There’s not a huge need for, “Mommy.” Because anytime something goes wrong he’s like, “Mommy!” Or you know it’s time for your whatever gazpacho. (in voice of Junior) Oh, I love gazpacho. (in normal voice) She’s always taking care of him.

JOE: Right.

DAN: She’s always doing her thing but he’s never gotten that acceptance from Pa.

JOE: True. But I think, to your point. there’s so much more to dig into what that relationship means. I mean, of course I’m so grateful that he doesn’t have the same relationship to Ma as he does to Pa. He shouldn’t. But to find out what that means to him, that he’s always being babied or that he can always turn to his mom and what happens if he can’t.

DAN: Right.

JOE: Or what does she get out of the relationship that maybe, as especially we’re seeing a lot in this episode and through the next few, that Ma wants more. And she’s going to stand up for what she wants. So I don’t know. I mean these are all season three questions but like I would very much like to see where the show could take that.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: I think there’s a lot of possibilities there. But in any case, Junior throws away those clappy hands. And of course they land right in front of Gobo who’s passing through the gorgs’ garden which is so awkward. It’s like you overheard a conversation you really weren’t supposed to hear.

DAN: Yep.

JOE: But Gobo swallows his feelings. Says he’s fine. Fraggle up. We’re gonna keep moving. That seems healthy.

[Dan laughs]

JOE: They go to the Trash Heap. We get this cute scene with Philo and Gunge where they’re sharing their feelings with this talking stick. And Philo is talking about how he was scared the time he got his head stuck in his shoe. And Gunge is saying that he was scared that time that Philo’s head was stuck in a shoe. It’s very cute and they hug and all that. And so, remind me, Dan, are you Philo or Gunge? I can never remember which one’s which.

DAN: I’m Philo. And on that day for some reason, I don’t remember what it was, but Jordan jumped in to play Gunge. And so the passing of the talking stick and all of that. Again…we…I don’t…[sighs] I keep thinking, “Oh, why didn’t they choose the scene where I’m actually looking at the stick and handing it over to him?” Because from my puppetry, the technique perspective, they got the one shot where he’s looking away and he’s handing it off because we were doing that live.

JOE: Mm, sure.

DAN: And so, yeah, every time I see him I’m like, “Oh god bless America. Why am I not Frank?”

[Frank laughs]

DAN: And puppeteering better?

FRANK: Dan, if it’s any consolation, I was telling Joe last time we were doing this podcast that this show haunts me. I’ve done a ton of stuff in 40 years. Every day, every day since we wrapped, I think about this show at least once if not 10 times. And most often it’s that moment where I was like, “Pa’s eyes should have been closed there and I had them wide open. What was I thinking?”

Imagining like, (in pinched voice) “Dear Fraggle Producers, in episode 207, I happened to notice. Pa’s eyes were wide open. I was so distraught that I had to pause and watch it over and over.” (in normal voice) Nobody does that except you and me, Dan, by the way.

DAN: (in pinched voice) I refuse to watch this show moving forward with this style of puppetry. (in normal voice) Yeah.

[Joe and Frank laugh]

JOE: Well, also don’t forget we don’t know the things that are cut. Like when you’re like, “Oh there was a better take.” Well I didn’t know that. If I had known that I’d be complaining with you. Like it looked fine to me. I was busy looking at the funny little dolls that were wiggling. I wasn’t looking at the position their eyes or hands were in.

FRANK: When they release the Criterion edition with the behind the scenes, director’s cut.

DAN: Right.

FRANK: The 750 minute episodes of Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock.

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: You get, “Here’s the take where Dan’s eye focus was one degree off. Let’s all pause there.” No, Dan, I don’t think anyone noticed but you, friend. Honestly.

DAN: Yeah we should hire Peter Bogdanovich to do all of this.

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: The Zack Snyder cut.

JOE: That’s right. So well, here’s a question. There’s probably no answer to this. Is there a difference in performance or backstory between Philo and Gunge? Or is it just they’re both two brains, one straw.

DAN: No, no, no. There is a difference. And I found this out while I was researching. I contacted Dave Goelz and he said, “Well first off, you’re doing a great job. Secondly, you’re studying me but you should be studying Gunge because as Philo, I was copying Richard Hunt.” And so I started looking at it from that perspective. Okay, I need to make a copy of a copy of his copy of the copy.

And so it influenced me a little. And you internalize all of these things. But once you’re standing next to Johnny or whoever else is puppeteering at that point, that all kind of just becomes. From a performance perspective, I honestly believe that Philo is more enamored with Marjory than Gunge is and he’s willing to do more to satisfy that codependent love that he has for her. But yeah. But we bounce stuff off of each other. I have to always bring a thesaurus to set in the back of my head because whenever we start improvising, we’ll say the same thing but we’ll go find synonyms for each one of the exploratory things that we go through.

JOE: Oh, that’s fun.

DAN: At the end of the day we’re just looking to make each other laugh. It’s what we’re trying to do.

JOE: And that comes across so well too. And I’ve said this on this podcast many times before but like when you guys are having fun, we can see that on the screen. And so as long as you’re entertaining yourselves, then like you’re doing a great job. Don’t worry about us. We’ll catch up.

DAN: You should hear all the stuff that never makes it to air. It’s pretty fantastic.

JOE: Again, for the Criterion collection. Let’s get that stuff. Let’s release that. Yeah, the R-rated version of Fraggle Rock. So Marjory invites the Fraggles to join in on their feelings circle. But Gobo’s like, “Hey, no time for feelings.” And like she is taken aback by this. No time for feelings? There’s always time for feelings.

But here’s my complaint that I will say once and then I’m gonna, I’ll leave it alone for the rest of the episode. Gobo’s not exactly wrong. Like they’re actually in crisis mode and sometimes it is like, well, we kind of need to act. Now of course it isn’t like we’ve got a ticking clock. It’s not like the bomb’s about to go off in 10 seconds. But it does feel like that to them. And so at least I appreciate where Gobo’s coming from. But of course he’s also wrong. And I recognize that as well.

DAN: Well, you’ll also see, there is kind of a little ticking time bomb. The actions of the gorgs moving forward in this episode, it’s gonna affect the Fraggles once they dig down.

JOE: That’s true. Yeah.

DAN: There is a little bit of something there.

JOE: Yeah. So, yeah. He’s right. Fraggle up.

DAN: [laughs] You’re right too, Joe.

JOE: [laughs] Marjory’s advice to him, which is appropriately cryptic for the Trash Heap, is “Go back to where it all began. Look beneath the surface. Bring down what’s there into the light.” Which like Marjory, what are? You’re not helping. You’re just saying words. Okay. She goes down into the soil. She’s gone.

DAN: Yeah. She received a package of fortune cookies a long time ago and is slowly digesting them. Yeah.

JOE: That’s true. Yeah. Or more like magnet poetry.

DAN: Oh yeah [laughs] Word jumble.

JOE: [laughs] Right. So Gobo translates this in his fraggle brain as, we have to go back to where it began which is the fraggle horn. Because that’s where Traveling Matt announced his radish discovery. And look beneath the surface. Bring down what’s in the light is that they should start digging. So he convinces everyone to get little shovels and little helmets. And I love Wembley’s got like a little headlamp on his. Oh, and Cotterpin also has this amazing like drill vehicle. Two big drills on either side. Like they came prepared to really just mess up their whole great hall here with a giant pit.

FRANK: Yeah, that’s a real sci-fi Doozer dozer there. I love that. All those toys. I just wanted like, (in high voice) When we’re done can, I just play with those for a minute?”

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: (in normal voice) Doozer Tonka toys. I think that they’re so beautifully designed and built and then they start moving and you’re like, “Oh!”

DAN: And then they turn the lights on.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah. Well and for that one specifically, I have to assume, and I’m saying this with having done no research on this, is that usually when we see a Doozer vehicle or tool that we’re only going to see once, that maybe it’s modified from something else. But I don’t know if we’ve ever seen a Doozer vehicle of this size. So obviously it was built for this episode. And it’s just really impressive.

DAN: And it’s big enough to hide Johnny puppeteering Gobo on top of it.

JOE: Oh.

FRANK: In the song. Yeah.

DAN: Yeah, that happens in the song and him contorting his body in order to hide himself, you know, the machine is a little closer to camera. There’s a little bit of of fudging that happens there. But what you see on the screen is what we saw in our monitors of Johnny hiding himself extremely well behind that machine. The other thing is Johnny’s body roll in this, as he’s dancing, Gobo’s body roll that he does is exceptional.

FRANK: Do you mean the spin?

DAN: No, no, no. He does a body roll where he’s like first he starts with his head and then he goes with his chest and then he goes with his pelvis.

JOE: Oh yes, yes.

FRANK: Sort of an undulation.

DAN: Yeah, undulation.

JOE: Like he’s doing the worm but standing.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: It’s absolutely beautiful. His weight is still there. His center of gravity is still there. Yeah, it’s just beautifully thought-out, rehearsed and performed by Johnny. I can’t, yeah, I can’t say enough about that.

JOE: Yeah. I mean it’s no wonder that Johnny does most of the choreography in the series because he is such an amazing puppet dancer? I don’t know how else to…Like as a performer, a puppeteer specifically for dancing. I don’t know. I don’t know how else to say that but yeah, he’s great.

DAN: (in accented voice) Yeah, he’s got limber joints. Limber joints.

JOE: Exactly. [laughs]

DAN: (in normal voice) The other thing–

FRANK: I think Johnny, I think he has dance training. Sorry, Dan. I cut you off there.

DAN: Oh yeah. No, go ahead.

JOE: Oh, yeah.

FRANK: There was actually, early days of Back to the Rock there was a big choreography scene, I was in Boober, and Johnny did this spin with Gobo in place. And I was like, “Oh, that looked really cool. I’m gonna do that.”

[Joe and Dan laugh]

FRANK: I didn’t do that. I did something that looked like a stir stick wanking around in a glass. The puppet was all over the place. And actually I stopped and I went how the heck did he do that. I think I’m all right as a puppeteer. I should be able to do. No, I could not do that. How he made his arm rotate on the exact same axis as his spine while he did a spin on one foot, I just, I had to let it go. It broke my heart I couldn’t keep up. Johnny’s…he’s the thang

JOE: It’s almost like he’s been on Broadway or something.

FRANK: [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

DAN: Kind of like that. One thing that I have to talk about [big breath in and out] is the proper art of tucking in your clothes because…

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: Bit of a side track here, Dan. Fashion notes from Dan.

DAN: We dealt with tons and tons of rubber dirt in this scene. And there, yeah, there are some effects. There’s some effect dirt that happens. But there’s a lot of real dirt that’s happening there. And it’s flying up and it’s landing inside of my shirt and going down my pants and getting stuck all inside you. And it’s horrible. I think that’s how rubber pearls are made over time.

[Joe laughs]

DAN: With maker and all that. We would go get off set and we’re shaking. The same thing with Glitterini. We were finding this stuff for weeks afterwards. In my shoes, in my… how it got in my backpack, I have no idea. It wasn’t even close to set. It was just rubber dirt everywhere.

FRANK: I think I put that in your backpack.

DAN: Did you? Thank you, Frank. Appreciate it.

FRANK: Yeah, no.

JOE: It’s a souvenir. Something to take home from set.

DAN: Yeah.

FRANK: Another thing Dan took from set.

[Joe and Dan laugh]

FRANK: The list grows as does your prison sentence, Dan.

DAN: Thank you, Frank.

FRANK: Actually, talking about that dirt, I’m a very technical puppeteer. I love when you give me a prop. Give me a shovel. Give me a stick or a cane or something and it’s like, oh what can do with this? I loved doing that shoveling, but as Dan said, there was a group of fine folks in front of us, just under camera and we coordinated the shoveling to the beat of the song and as the shovels raised, they would have small boxes and buckets of these black rubber pearls that they would whip into the air. So it looked like each shovel was throwing the appropriate quantity of stuff over their shoulders. And yeah, it went everywhere. And there was chafing.

DAN: Yes. Yeah.

JOE: If you’re not chafing then you’re not doing puppetry right. That’s what they say.

FRANK: You’re not trying hard enough. Yeah, exactly.

JOE: That’s right.

FRANK: That’s the t-shirt.

JOE: [laughs] So there’s also a scene in here I wanted to point out where Mokey’s feeling really overwhelmed and Gobo shuts her down pretty quickly because there’s no time for feelings, as we’ve established. And Red says, “Feelings are what fraggles do best. That’s what the F is for. Without them we’re just raggles.” And it never occurred to me that FRAGGLE is an acronym.

[All laugh]

JOE: So what do we think the other letters stand for?

DAN: Oh man.

JOE: What’s the R in FRAGGLES stand for? We’re going to do the other letters.

DAN: Radish, obviously.

JOE: Radish.

FRANK: Okay, so we got Feelings, Radishes.

JOE: Yeah. A?

DAN: Accolades.

JOE: Yep, accolades. There’s so many of those.

DAN: That’s too big. Maybe it’s too big of a word for the fraggles.

JOE: Nope. We’re going with it because this is…we’re making this up anyway. So who cares? How about the first G? Or the double G? Are there twins on Fraggle Rock? [laughs]

FRANK: Good Gatherings?

DAN: Ooooh. Love that.

JOE: Good Gatherings. Absolutely. How about the L? Well the L, I’ll do this one. The L is for Lanford because Mokey made up the acronym since she loves Lanford. And the E? What’s the E stand for?

DAN: E is maybe enjoy.

JOE: Yeah, enjoy it. Enjoy those fraggles, everybody. We did it. That’s what FRAGGLE stands for.

FRANK: Now we know.

JOE: Now we know. Put that on a t-shirt. So as we said, this is where we get our first song of the episode. The song is called “Push It Down and Fraggle Up.” It’s a fun song. I like this. It’s got a good beat. I found myself swaying and bopping. Bopping along to the whole thing. And there’s a great moment in here that for me, the first time I saw, it was jaw on the floor which is 

when we hit the bridge and everyone freezes in time and Gobo steps into the spotlight and has this moment where he’s wondering out loud if he shouldn’t be ignoring his emotions. And while he’s singing, four inkspots come in and they all start to harmonize with him which is beautiful and very inkspotty.

And then he goes, “Nah.” And then he jumps back into the song and time starts up again.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: That’s just wonderful. Visually and musically and thematically, everything about it is great. I love it.

FRANK: Yeah. It’s a nice piece of theater, huh?

JOE: Yeah, it is.

FRANK: Feels like a scene from a Broadway show. I just I thought too that that tone change, that gear change was really well done.

DAN: Beautifully.

FRANK: Dan, do you think that’s all, that’s largely John? John did the majority of our choreography.

DAN: I believe so.

FRANK: But I don’t recall if there were  others. If there was someone else involved.

DAN: Well, I’m sure it came up in discussions, you know? Wouldn’t it be cool if blah blah blah. And everyone’s like, “Oh yeah.” I don’t know exactly where it came from but if you talk to Johnny, I’m sure he’d say most of what we do is collective. It’s part of a big bowl of salad.

FRANK: Big bowl of brains.

[crosstalk]

DAN: Frank’s got a thing for brains.

FRANK: I like brains.

JOE: I mean we should probably give some props to Jon Rosenbaum who directed this episode.

DAN: Oh, god, yeah.

JOE: Because the whole spotlight thing seems like a directorial…

DAN: (imitating Jon Rosenbaum, a deep voice) Oh, hello. Oh. Jon Rosenbaum. [mumbles] (in normal voice) I actually made– I did a Doozer in Rosenbaum’s voice at one point. I don’t remember which one it was. I went over to him and I said, “Hey can you say this line for me real quick?” And he said it and I went back and I was like [mumbles in deep voice] Jon Rosenbaum. (in normal voice) So he’s in there somewhere.

JOE: I don’t know Jon Rosenbaum. Is that what he– He sounds like Rowlf the Dog, it sounds like.

DAN: He sounds like if Seth Rogen and Rowlf the Dog had a kid.

JOE: [laughs] Okay.

DAN: That sort of and they were in Michigan for most of their lives great.

JOE: Great.

DAN: Yep.

FRANK: That’s pretty specific. You thought about this a lot, Dan.

DAN: Oh yeah. No. It’s my craft, man. My craft.

JOE: [laughs] What part of Michigan. No, we don’t need to. We don’t need to get into it.

DAN: The inside.

JOE: The inside of Michigan.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Got it. Not hovering above. That’s a totally different accent. Yeah, yeah.

DAN: One thing about pausing a character or stopping a character is a lot of times I’ll hold my breath for as long as I can, because even breathing affects your arm.

JOE: Oh, sure.

DAN: And so you’ll see a little bit of sympathetic movement in the tail or things like that because it’s an extension of the characters. But yeah I try to, if I can’t lean on something, then it’s holding my breath for as long as I can until we go back into motion. Because it happens a few times.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: I mean that’s one of those… I don’t know if you call it a pet peeve but like one of those things where it’s, speaking as someone who watches too many movies and TV shows, when there’s something like someone’s supposed to be frozen or someone’s supposed to be, like a character is dead and I can see the actor breathing. I watched a movie the other day where someone was supposed to be dead and they move the body. But his eyes were open and so his eyes were like focusing on things unintentionally. It’s just like, I mean I get it. It’s a real person. You aren’t going to use a corpse but like I see it. It takes me out of it.

DAN: Another strike against 8K. You know, just saying.

JOE: Yeah. Right.

DAN: We see too much.

JOE: That’s right. Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock should be released the way that Jim Henson intended.

DAN: Betamax.

JOE: On Betamax or streaming on…er streaming. Like aired of like 1980s HBO that you’re kind of like pirating from your neighbor

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah. Like we want bad quality. We want static. We want bad tracking. And just to hide the breathing. 

DAN: Moving forward, I got to be that fraggle that turns the thing in the next episode.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: The little cyclorama or whatever the hell that is.

JOE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

DAN: Yeah. I think it should be released like that. We should re-release it in just static images and voiceover.

JOE: Oh yeah. Yeah. Do like, yeah, photos. La Jetée, if you’ve seen that.

DAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JOE: Yes, exactly. Black and white.

FRANK: Can we change the theme? Change the theme song: (sings to tune of Flintstones theme) Fraggles, meet the fraggles.

JOE: Aaahh. [laughs]

[Dan laughs]

FRANK: (in normal voice) Stone slabs.

[crosstalk]

JOE: Those were the Doozers that Icy Joe ate were those old Stone age Doozers.

FRANK: Yeah.

DAN: (laughing) Stone age Doozers.

FRANK: Everybody’s chomping on a Doozer. Yabba-dabba-don’t.

JOE: Yabba-dabba-doozer.

FRANK: Yeah, there you go.

DAN: I’m going to plan a seed for the next episode that you’re going to talk about. Bring up the fact that my arm got ripped off of my body, while we’re doing the little film strip thing.

JOE: Oh my goodness.

DAN: Just throw it out there. Yeah, yeah.

JOE: I will. Yeah.

DAN: Whoever’s going to be on. No spoilers. But yeah, my arm got ripped out of my socket. And that was a lot of fun.

JOE: Okay.

FRANK: I think it’s grown back rather well.

DAN: Yeah, yeah.

JOE: Something to look forward to next week, everybody.

DAN: One’s slightly longer than the other. [laughs]

JOE: [laughs] So back at the gorgs’ garden, Pa says, “Oh, let’s rake the soil.” And Ma immediately is like no, no, no. That’s a terrible idea. You’re gonna make things ten times worse. And this is, I feel like, such a turning point for Ma as a character. We’ve seen her kind of getting smarter throughout this season. We’re definitely building up to a big change for her. But this is the point in which not only is she saying, “Hang on. I’m the smart one of the family,” but she’s the responsible one in the family. She says to Pa, “Don’t do it. “And he says, “Oh, we won’t…listen to you.” Which is such a dick thing to say.

DAN: Yeah.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: What a deliberate pause. Come on, Pa.

FRANK: Yeah, I think that episode features Pa at his very worst.

[Dan laughs]

JOE: Yeah, yeah. Well because like there are times where he’s, I would argue, that he is a worse person, but because he’s directing his worst attributes toward his only family, I feel like that makes him, this is absolutely 100% the worst that Pa is. We know that he doesn’t like the Fraggles. He’s going to be a jerk to them. But like, to your wife? Come on.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: To your only child? Come on.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: Pa!

FRANK: As I recall, there was some contention on set as to whether or not that line should stick, because it’s pretty much a slap. Right?

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: And I can’t recall another episode where he was that mean to Ma.

JOE: Yeah, but obviously–

FRANK: And I guess, I’m sorry. Just to finish that. I think it needed to be that for her to finally dig in and say, “You know what? I’m outta here.”

JOE: Yes. That’s exactly what I was going to say. She needed that…

DAN: Catalyst.

JOE: That catalyst. That last straw on the camel’s back that was going to say, you know what? Going for a walk. And interesting though that he’s like, what’s a walk? Like he’s never walked before. [laughs]

FRANK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well there it is, too.

DAN: Nor been in the kitchen.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: That’s true.

FRANK: The notion that the Trash Heap is literally around the back of their castle and nobody’s really gone there. You get the feeling they just throw all their stuff out the window. Because in the next scene, Ma meets Marjory.

JOE: Right.

FRANK: And she wouldn’t have had that compulsive or that motivation if Pa hadn’t been that mean to her. So I think in hindsight, I look at it now and I go, no, that’s an appropriate amount of cruelty on Pa’s part to motivate something to happen that has never happened in the history of the gorgs.

JOE: Right.

DAN: How upset is she that she would go to where they throw their trash? Like she could go anywhere, but she ends up, she’s literally in the dumps.

JOE: Wow.

DAN: Her heart is literally in the dumps.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: Wow. I mean we could talk about that too because it’s such a fascinating moment when Ma meets Marjory. And I remember seeing this for the first time and it felt like such a whoa moment and then I had to stop and go, have they met before? Like how have we gone through five seasons of the original show and now over a season and a half of Back to the Rock and they’ve never interacted before? I mean, it’s a long time coming, obviously. Aymee Garcia performs both of the voices

DAN: Right.

FRANK: Correct.

JOE: Right.

DAN: Yeah. Aymee does both and it’s Ingy and Kira Hall.

FRANK: Kira Hall.

JOE: Right. So yeah, Ingrid Hansen also is a performer on both. And going back to the beginning of this episode when Mokey and Cotterpin have their like, “Hey girlfriend” moment and it’s like, oh right, like they should know each other. Like we’re doing that again over here. And on top of that, this idea of Ma who probably feels really lonely when she’s sharing this castle with these two idiots and no one else. And finding solace and friendship with another woman. Women helping women, which is important. And someone who can kind of match her intellectually at this point. And not someone that she needs to like talk down to because they don’t quite understand why you shouldn’t rake the Gorgamax soil. You know what I mean?

DAN: She’s literally talking down to the Trash Heap though.

JOE: Okay, physically down.

DAN: Physically down, yes.

FRANK: But interestingly, Ma is at the peak of her despair because everything is falling apart, and she can’t stay around the front of the castle where she’s been for however many hundred years because her husband is just too belligerent and mean. And Marjory says something to the effect of, a queen always recognizes another queen.

JOE: That’s right.

FRANK: It’s Ma’s build up moment, right? Because obviously Marjory is full of confidence, despite her being kind of a static character made out of garbage. She’s supremely present and confident and compassionate and everything you’d want in a friend. And there she is reaching to Ma saying you and I are the same. I think it’s a great hinge for Ma to begin her turn to whatever it is she’s going to become in future seasons.

JOE: Yeah. Absolutely agree. And then bouncing off of what you said a second ago, Dan, about her talking, literally talking down to Marjory. Another thing I didn’t think about is the size difference. Like of course there’s a size difference but like Marjory looks so tiny compared to Ma and like of course she does, because we always see Marjory with the Fraggles and of course the Fraggles– the puppet size of the Fraggle does not equal the puppet size of the of the gorgs. We gotta fake it a little bit.

DAN: Right.

JOE: But that’s a little jarring to be honest.

DAN: More of a trash hump, if you will.

JOE: Yeah, right. [laughs]

FRANK: Trash mound.

DAN: Trash mound.

JOE: Yeah, she’s a little trash mound. Yeah. Yeah.

FRANK: But it makes sense, right? Because the Trash Heap’s large compared to the Fraggles.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Right.

FRANK: And the gorgs, of course, are huge compared to the Fraggles. So I’m sure someone sat down with a compass and a ruler and went, (in pinched voice) Okay, so the exact statistics are…”

JOE: Right.

DAN: Well, gorgs measure 18 feet tall. Like that’s Junior’s height. That’s how big he is and if he were in real life. So you can imagine how large the Trash Heap actually is. She’s pretty massive but not comparatively.

JOE: Yeah. Well, we’ll see more of these two talking soon and we’ll definitely break that open a little bit more. But back at the gorgs’ garden, Pa and Junior start to rake the soil here. And this is such a good shot of the wind blowing around the two of them and the soil like there’s dirt in the air. And both of them, you don’t really get a sense of how long their fur is until here, where it’s really just blowing around in their faces. It looks great on the screen.

FRANK: (in normal voice) Yeah. That’s a nice shot. There’s a lot of leaf blowers off camera and big fans.

DAN: Giant fans. Yeah.

FRANK: Gigantic fans.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: Yeah, I have a behind the scenes shot that I, literally, I just, because I was watching the episode, I just sent that over to Tim O’Brien. So maybe you’ll see it on social media. But it’s a shot where Junior and Pa are raking and I’m screaming at the top of my lungs, doing all of Junior’s lines. And then the cherry on top and this was, all credit goes to Benny for this, at the end of it just yells out, “Ma!” And Benny was like, “You know what? It’d be really great if he just drops to his knees and sort of this you know, this Willem Defoe, Platoon-esque sort of moment.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: And it was absolutely spectacular being able to do that. It was so much fun.

JOE: That’s great. Is there actually dirt in the air or something in the air? Or is it just the wind and they post put all of the dirt in?

DAN: Just the wind. Just the wind. There was, I mean, there’s a little bit of debris flying around.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: But you can see in the BTS stuff that it’s mostly wind. A little bit of maybe some leaves and stuff like that. But the rest of it’s in post.

FRANK: Some Gorgamax.

DAN: And it looks gorgeous. Yeah. A lot of Gorgamax.

JOE: Yeah. Yeah.

DAN: But it looks yeah gorg-geous.

JOE: Gorg-geous.

DAN: Absolutely gorg-geous.

JOE: Gorg-geous. Back under Fraggle Rock, everyone is exhausted. They’ve now tunneled down like an ant farm underneath Fraggle Rock. And everyone’s starting to worry that they’re wasting their time. And now Pogey rushes in and they tell everyone that there’s a dust storm up above from the gorgs’ gardens. So now they’re all stuck underground. Things are just getting worse and worse and worse.

Gobo wants to continue fraggling up and everyone pressures him to come up with a follow up plan. And this is the point where like he’s hit his limit and he throws down his cape. And he starts to bawl like a baby. Like he’s just, “Waaahaahaah.” And he admits that he’s scared. He admits he’s sad. He’s worried about his relationship with Junior Gorg. He’s worried about all this, like he’s trapped all of his friends underground. And I understand that this is really cathartic for Gobo, but it seems like it was really cathartic for John Tartaglia as well. Like he’s really pulling this from somewhere deep inside of himself.

DAN: Think of everything that he does on this show.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: Think of absolutely everything that he does and it’s not lost on me that there are so many parallels between Gobo and Johnny. He was born to be Gobo in this iteration of this series, these characters. Because he does keep everything together. He is like sparkly and shiny and bouncy and everybody comes to him to fix the problems, and all that. And you know, and he looks good in a hat.

[Joe laughs]

DAN: So it’s all of those things are just really great meshes.

JOE: Right. I can imagine Gobo saying like, “I trapped everybody and Junior hates me and I have to write and direct and perform puppets and do all the choreography. And someone has to come up to him to say like, “No, no, no. You’re pulling this from the wrong part of your soul here. You gotta get back to the lines.”

DAN: The great thing about Johnny is that he does set those boundaries as well. And he relies also on, I’m not speaking for him but I can see it, that he relies on other people’s disciplines and experience to be able to pull this off. Because no one person can do it on their own. And he’d be the first one to tell you that he’s not doing it on his own. It’s real. Yeah, no. It’s a testament to everyone involved that this show gets made and so beautifully.

JOE: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Gobo’s outbreak is so cathartic, it’s so expressive, that all the other fraggles start to cry as well. They get so upset that Red and Wembley both grow eyelids.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Which is rare.

FRANK: That’s pretty upset.

JOE: Yeah. Yeah. And everyone is sobbing and they’re like not just sobbing, they’re like screaming sobbing. And they all just kind of get it out of their system. They just kind of needed that. And I think we all do once in a while. It’s an effective form of therapy, I suppose.

DAN: On the day, I was sobbing as well because of Frank. Frank in his eternal wisdom decided that it was a great opportunity since he was going to be Boobering up front, to hand off the heaviest of all of our puppets barring Icy Joe. And gave me Large Marvin to actually puppeteer through these sequences. And he’s a heavy, heavy boy.

JOE: It’s not just a name. Yeah.

DAN: It’s not just a name. He’s large and he’s gorgeous and I relished the opportunity to be able to puppeteer him and had studied Frank and the way that he had puppeteered Large Marvin. During the cry, there’s a really, again looking at background stuff, during the cry, there’s a scene where, because I love Ingy and it’s reciprocal. We have a really tremendous relationship. But she’s Lanford and she puts her leaf around Large Marvin and consoles him. And he’s consoling her at the same time And it’s just, it’s beautiful.

JOE: Oh, that’s nice.

DAN: There’s also a little snoring sequence where they’re falling asleep and he’s back to back with another Fraggle. I think it was, maybe it was Dean [Bareham] that I was next to. I’m trying to remember. And he’s [makes snoring sounds] just snoring in this rhythmic sort of sense. And yeah, it was a lot of fun to explore Marvin back there.

JOE: That’s great.

DAN: Thank you, Frank. Thank you.

JOE: Yeah. 

FRANK: [laughs] That’s part of the Stanislavski approach to puppeteering, Dan. If you got a character who’s big and heavy in his social graces, in his movements, you gotta make it big and heavy for real.

DAN: Yeah. [laughs]

FRANK: Yeah. Marvin’s a bit of a tank but a fun character.

DAN: He’s so fun. He’s so great

JOE: That’s great.

DAN: Thanks for the privilege. I appreciate that.

FRANK: I should point out too that in that scene you were talking about Red and Wembley growing eyelids, Boober did as well, they just weren’t seen.

DAN: Oh.

[Joe laughs]

FRANK: See what I did there?

JOE: Yeah. What a waste of time that was for someone to build those eyelids.

DAN: What an excellent opportunity to put eyes, you know, have the eyes actually seen crying. Aaahh.

[crosstalk]

JOE: Then we’d all be crying at home.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: This is where we get our second song of the episode. It’s actually two songs. “It Makes You Cry” followed immediately by “Sister and Brother (We Are Part of Each Other).” These are both from the original series episode “River of Life.” And I don’t really have many notes on this song except just to say that it’s really lovely. I like a moment where puppets can just kind of stop the action and just have a nice little song without too much fanfare. Yeah, I like it. I don’t know if you guys have any stories or any observations about it other than I like it.

DAN: It was our “We Are the World” moment. It was so good. All of us singing and swaying together. And the way that it feels on screen is the way that it felt when we were there.

JOE: Oh, that’s nice.

DAN: And when cameras are off, too, it’s just this beautiful camaraderie and trust. Yeah, it’s…there’s nothing like.

JOE: If this was your “We Are the World” moment, who are you? Are you Harry Belafonte? Are you Huey Lewis?

DAN: Oh, definitely Bob Dylan.

JOE: Bob Dylan?

DAN: Definitely Bob Dylan.

[Frank laughs]

JOE: If I were there I would have been the Dan Aykroyd. Like why is he there? [laughs]

So Gobo looks over and he sees a rock with a cutout shape of a hand in it. And he puts his hand on it and a stone door opens into this huge cave. There are all these, I think we find out next episode they’re statues but when I first saw this I thought that they were like frozen fraggles. Because they’re just armatured like, gray armatured fraggles. But they’re statues and there’s these amazing stone chandeliers and these like hand-drawn paintings or tapestries on the wall. 

And there’s this music cue as they go in and I don’t know if this was deliberate, but it sounds like something we would have heard in The Dark Crystal. And that would have been appropriate for thematically for what we’re seeing. Also the Henson connection. That would have been cool. Maybe if someone who worked on the music is listening to this they can confirm or deny that. But that was the vibe that I got.

And the fraggle five, Lanford and Cotterpin all enter this mysterious cave. And while they look around, we see a cloaked figure secretly watching them. And to be continued. We’re leaving this on a cliffhanger. You gotta tune in next week. Or right away because it’s streaming right now. Just watch the next episode.

DAN: [laughs] Let me give you a little…here’s a little behind the scenes knowledge.

JOE: Yeah. Hit me with it.

DAN: The tapestries that are up on the wall? Those are old Karen Prell sketches.

JOE: Whoa. Karen drew those?

DAN: Yeah. 

JOE: Back in the day? Back in the original series?

DAN: Back in the original series and they reproduced them and placed those in the museum where they damn well belong.

JOE: Yes. [laughs]

DAN: Yeah. It’s absolutely fantastic.

JOE: Wow, that’s great. I love hearing that.

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Like what a respect for Fraggle Rock history you all have. Which is, I mean continually, like there’s so many things that you don’t have to do and yet there’s so much honoring of the past while still creating something new. I’m just blown away by it.

DAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JOE: So now that we’ve hit the end of this episode, do you guys have any other memories or any other observations that you want to share that we maybe skipped over?

FRANK: I got a note that it occurred to me watching. When they were all digging that tunnel that kind of zigzag across the screen and they kind of used almost a stop motion effect, where they’re all digging and then the next shot they’re all digging a channel going left to right and then the next shot they’re underneath that one digging right to left. Very effective. Very Pink Panther-y.

JOE: Mmhmm.

FRANK: Very great cartoony in a way. And I thought that was a clever bit of storytelling, visual storytelling, that we hadn’t… I don’t think we’ve seen something like that before, that skipping passages of time to indicate movement through the underground. I thought that was cool.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: And a cool way to show that they’re moving without having to show us their legs.

FRANK: Yeah.

[crosstalk]

JOE: Because we would have had to see them jumping around. Yeah.

FRANK: Yeah, I can’t remember where this place is right now. Maybe you can remember, Dan. There’s a beautiful overhead shot, isn’t there, where they’re all around a hole or something. It’s just looks gorgeous.

DAN: Yeah, where we’re all singing, “this big old hole.”

FRANK: Yeah (singing) that big old hole.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: (in normal voice) That was a magnificent shot.

JOE: So were you all standing in a circle and they edited out the puppeteers? Or was everyone kind of filming that in groups or individually?

FRANK: I think we all stood in a circle and we had a huge jib arm. Jib arm or is there a crane? What’s the difference?

DAN: Yeah.

JOE: Big old camera.

FRANK and DAN: (singing) Big old camera.

FRANK: (in normal voice) So it was probably fully extended and way, way, way up enough so that the shot could hold probably about 25 or so Fraggles. It’s a beautiful show.

JOE: Yeah, it’s a lot.

FRANK: And they comped it in in post with, yeah, with the actual hole that was added later. But that was another terrific shot. There’s some neat post in this episode.

DAN: (in normal voice) It’s a beast if you think about it, because you have to basically edit out all of these people that are…We weren’t in blues, I remember that. It was, we were just us. And tried to stay clear of each other. Tried to stay clear, you put your arm out as far. From what I recall we tried to locate our bodies as far away from the puppet so that it was easy to–easier to pull us out of it for that shot. We didn’t have anything to hide out up against or underneath or behind because we’re all just kind of there. And feet are taut. Frank, did we have extensions on our feet or did they put them in after? I don’t remember on that shot.

FRANK: I can’t recall either. I’d have to go and look at the shot again.

DAN: Because they look steady. Like the feet look really firm.

FRANK: Yeah.

JOE: Oh, you mean there’s something attached to the fraggle feet.

FRANK: Yes, so they don’t swing around.

DAN: So they don’t swing around.

FRANK: I think there must have been.

JOE: So when you say extensions, what does that mean if you’re using extensions on fraggle puppet feet?

DAN: Oh you basically rig a rod to the feet and then you hold them tight so they don’t move as much. We do them on the full-body characters anyway. There’s a place to rig that.

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: I don’t recall if we did that on that shot. I don’t think we did.

JOE: I mean that’s maybe just the magic of post-production. Right?

DAN: Yeah. I’m gonna say there was a magic wand. And somebody is very capable of doing that.

FRANK: Mainly witchcraft, dash of voodoo.

JOE: Yeah.

FRANK: And then it just magically happens.

JOE: Yeah. That sounds appropriately Fraggley. Yeah.

DAN: And years and years of VFX experience and skill that went behind it. Because all of those people involved are just tremendously unsung heroes. The best shots are the ones that you can’t tell are the effects shots.

JOE: Absolutely.

DAN: They just do an amazing job at what they do. Just totally.

JOE: Yeah. Great job. Kudos to the post folks.

DAN: Absolutely.

JOE: So as we come to the end of this episode, I have a question that we like to ask all of our guests who come here to Fraggle Talk. Dan and Frank, how do you plan to make this world a little Fragglier?

FRANK: You know what? I gave you an answer to that question last time and I’m gonna change it for this asking. I think the idea of supporting your friends even if their ideas are loony is a good one and a valid one. Because with social media, we spread ourselves so thin between so many quote friends online. When you have a physical, a friend who you know and you can talk to and who you can have a coffee with and who you can tell your crazy ideas to and they don’t run screaming out of the room, you owe that to your friends back.

And everybody supported Gobo when he said, “No, the Trash Heap meant this. Let’s all dig to the center of the Earth. [laughs] It’s a loony idea and they all just go, “You know, all right. Sounds as reasonable as anything. Let’s stick with Gobo until we can’t no more.” Even Ma to a degree, sticking with Pa through all that. Although I put that a deep second place because I think Ma should’ve give him his comeuppance maybe a few years earlier.

JOE: Right.

FRANK: But that’d be my takeaway. If you have friends, support them. And not just through the good times but support them through their troubles. Because it won’t be forever till you’re the one with troubles and you’ll appreciate having a friend who’s there to back you up.

JOE: The F is for friendship. [laughs]

FRANK: That’s it. The F should be for friendship.

JOE: That’s right. Dan, how do you plan to make the world a little Fragglier?

DAN: I guess anyone who’s followed me on social media knows that I kind of put stuff out there.  Motivational things, things that I’m trying to preach to myself, encouraging this or whatever. And a lot of it is self-talk because, you know, these past few years I’ve gone through a lot of changes, a lot of trials, a lot of like just…it’s been really challenging to find Dan and to love Dan and all of that. And to fix Dan. And just to be the better version of myself. And I wasn’t always like that. And therapy is huge for me. Talking to people and not just pushing those feelings down.

This episode really resonated when I watched it again, because I’ve seen this episode probably three or four times since we were in contact. Like, “Hey we want to do this.” “Oh yeah, yeah. Sure.” And every time I’m like, “Oh yeah, that’s right. I was there. Oh god.”

JOE: Yeah.

DAN: And so I think self-help is the only way to positively affect the world that surrounds us. And cutting myself some slack and not being so self-reliant and not being so… not living behind a facade of who I’m supposed to be. I have to be me. And yeah, I’ve come a long way in that process and yeah. I don’t mean to turn this into a therapy session but oh gosh, yeah, that’s the only way that I can effect proper change around me is by being the best version of myself right now. And tomorrow hopefully I’ll be a better version of me from the day before and passing on that love and empathy to others.

JOE: Well Dan, you’ve been a great friend to us over the years and, you know, from my perspective, you’re a great guy and I’m so grateful to have you here talking about this stuff with us and to have this little impromptu therapy session.

[Dan laughs]

JOE: We’re all learning a lot about you right now.

DAN: Send me your invoice. That’d be great.

JOE: Yeah, right. Exactly. Dan Garza, Frank Meschkuleit, thank you both so much for being here. Thank you for all the work you’ve done on Back to the Rock and we’re gonna keep our fingers crossed that we’ll get to do this again next year for season three and we’ll have you back on the podcast.

DAN: Yeah, let’s do six and a movie. How about that?

[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]

JOE: Fraggle Talk: the unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast is brought to you by ToughPigs.com. Produced, written and hosted by Joe Hennes. Fraggle Talk art by Dave Hulteen Jr. Fraggle Rock mark and logo, characters and elements are trademarks of the Jim Henson Company. All rights reserved. Transcripts provided by Katilyn Miller.

Fraggle Rock theme song, written by Philip Balsam and Dennis Lee, is used with permission. Special thanks to The Jim Henson company, Apple TV+ and the entire Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock family.

Be sure to follow ToughPigs @ToughPigs on all social media platforms, including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. And please consider supporting us on Patreon or by buying merchandise on Teepublic.

For more Fraggle podcast fun, listen to Fraggle Talk: Classic on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time, down at Fraggle Talk.

[Music ends]