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Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – Episode 15: The Twisty-Turny-Thon
[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]
JOE HENNES: Hello and welcome to Fraggle Talk: the unofficial Fraggle Rock Podcast brought to you by ToughPigs.com. This is the podcast where we cover Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock episode by episode, along with the talented producers, performers, writers, and builders who helped put it all together. I’m your host, silly creature, Joe Hennes.
[Music ends]
JOE: Today, we’re talking about season 2, episode 2, “The Twisty-Turny-Thon, in which Red goes on a big ol’ race and gets lost.
Today, we’re chatting with two very Fraggly puppeteers. First, you’ve seen him wemble all over the screen as Wembley. It’s Jordan Lockhart. Hello, Jordan.
JORDAN LOCKHART: Hello! How are you, sir?
JOE: I’m great. Thanks for joining us here.
JORDAN: My pleasure.
JOE: Also joining us is another puppeteer and wrangler, who can be found all over Back to the Rock, including inside Junior Gorg, it’s Ben Durocher. Hello, Ben.
BEN DUROCHER: I’m waving. You just can’t hear it. Hi.
JOE: It’s a very noisy wave.
BEN: That’s right. [laughs]
JOE: [laughs] Thank you both for being back here on the podcast. I’m so excited to talk to you guys about Back to the Rock again. So tell me, when did you each find out that Back to the Rock was renewed for a second season?
[Crosstalk]
JORDAN: Go ahead, Ben.
BEN: I was gonna say, I think we got like a mass, a group email, all the puppeteers, from, or actually no. It was like a hey guys, I have something to tell you from Johnny [Tartaglia], being like, hey, I have to talk to you about something. Let’s all jump on a Zoom at this time. And it was kind of obvious what the announcement was going to be. But I think that was on that call was when I got the official word.
JOE: So it wasn’t like… you didn’t think that he was going to say, “Sorry guys, the show’s been canceled. Good luck to you.” You had a good feeling about it?
JORDAN: There were already some rumors coming out of Calgary. Oh, this has been booked. That’s been booked. You know? So our faith was high.
JOE: That’s good. I’m glad to hear that. So it sounds like you were already gone. You were already back home when you got the news, right?
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: Cool. Yeah, because I mean, I hear, obviously people find out different times. And really what I want to find out is at what point did everyone know and then feel like they had to keep the secret from me?
BEN: [laughs] We definitely had to keep it quiet, like, generally speaking about it. I think until Apple officially announced that it was coming back.
JOE: Yeah, of course.
BEN: But the creature shop had already started working on stuff and actually we might have even been in Calgary when they finally announced it. I don’t remember.
JORDAN: Yeah, we were. Yeah, it was block one or something like that. Around the holidays.
JOE: Yeah, so you were already like in the middle of filming in secret in Canada. Okay.
JORDAN: It’s an awkward thing. It is.
[All laugh]
JOE: So for both of you as performers, what was different for you between season one and season two? Like, did you change your approach to anything? Did it feel more or less comfortable for you?
JORDAN: What do you think, Ben?
BEN: I, yeah, I mean, in a lot of ways, there were just less unknowns coming back. We kind of had found our groove by the end of the first season, particularly Dan and I as Junior had gotten to, you know, we got a good amount of hours together with the suit and with the set and everything. So I think there was a bit more confidence coming back and sort of just like, all right, I know what this is going to be and I know it’s going to be awesome.
JORDAN: Yeah, I think for me, the biggest thing was recognizing all of the places throughout season one where I was clearly doubting myself and saying, “No more.” You cannot rest on the past. That thing is beautiful. It’s perfect. It will always be there. You got to put yourself into this guy or it’s going to look really bad. It’s not going to come off the way you want, dude. So season two, I went in there and I just, I had so much more fun because I didn’t feel so beholden to what’s behind the glass. So to speak.
JOE: Yeah, I want to kind of pull on that thread a little bit, so to speak, because it must have been so hard for you in season one to perform as Wembley, not only not having, I mean, this wasn’t your character that you created. You don’t have the performer who’s like talking over your shoulder. The original performer who’s like giving you tips or whatever. You’re just trying to find that mix between what was and what you’re trying to create to make it your own.
So for season two, tell me a little bit more about what you did to continue making Wembley your character.
JORDAN: Well, and I mentioned this not too long ago, I think in that live talk with Johnny, was this idea of putting my own struggles into him and relating to him that way. Certainly, I’ve been a people-pleaser in my life. That’s something I relate to in Wembley, you know, desperately wanting to prevent calamity, friction between friends, you know, all that kind of stuff.
But the biggest thing that I brought into it this season was my journey with ADHD. I saw such an opportunity there to try to process, as Jordan through Wembley, all within the framework of the character that Steve created. And it was not only hugely fun, but for me, it came back around to the Wembley that I love. Like when I look at that as a fan, I see Wembley.
Perhaps that’s bold to say publicly, but I mean, that’s just, that was my way in. And I only want to continue exploring that and seeing what it looks like as his confidence grows because it’s going to be very unique for everybody else. It’s going to probably read as crazy, zany, manic-ness, but inside it’s like, no, I think he’s starting to really know where he stands and he just doesn’t care anymore. You know, that sort of thing.
So yeah, that’s kind of where I’m going. Man, I got some plans for him. But that’s all you get.
JOE: I like that. Well, we definitely, we’re going to talk about those plans. Maybe, maybe when the cameras aren’t rolling. But Wembley goes through some huge changes in the season and we’re going to talk so much more about that later on in this podcast. But I do, we do have to talk a little bit about the episode, “I’m Pogey.” And like you said, Wembley isn’t wembling as much as he is confirming who he is. And that is such a move for a character that is defined by indecision.
I don’t have a question in there. That’s just, I’m just kind of piggybacking on exactly what you just said. How did you feel about–
BEN: I’ll just say.
JOE: Yeah.
BEN: Can I just say as a fan of, well, Jordan’s, but of Fraggle Rock, like watching the way Jordan has taken Wembley to these new depths and really developed this beautifully rounded character. It’s, I mean, just a testament to him as a human being and as an actor. I’m in awe of what he did with Wembley this season.
JORDAN: Thanks, Ben. Kindness.
JOE: That’s great. And Ben, I want to talk a little bit about Junior Gorg because, as you said, you know, you had to go through the whole season of season one to really get comfortable with working with Dan Garza, having two people perform one character. But then you end up with this, I don’t know how long the gap is. An eight month gap, I’m guessing, at least.
BEN: Yeah.
JOE: Between the end of season one and start of season two. So how hard was it for you to get back into character?
BEN: Oh, it really felt like no time at all had passed. And, you know, we had the opportunity to watch the first season and see how Junior played on camera. And I think we both came back with so many ideas and just a new way to approach how we made the character come to life. It was like just getting to kick things up to a whole new level.
And I think the writers and the directors figured out what to do with the Gorgs more like we see more of Ma and Pa in season two. And so getting to play with Ingrid [Hansen] and Aymee [Garcia] and Frank [Meschkuleit] and Andy [Hayward] all together was so much fun getting to figure out all kinds of physical bits.
And, yeah, it was, I think across the board, the whole season was about kicking things up a notch with the puppetry and technically and the Gorgs were no exception.
JORDAN: I just want to say it’s one of those things you have to see to believe and I hope you can get out there sometime, Joe, because the alchemy on stage three is powerful, dude.
JOE: I’ve been telling everybody, because I tried to get there for season two and I was kind of told like, “Well, you know, it’s Apple TV. They’re really secretive. So maybe not.” And now, this time I’m like, I’m not going to ask permission. I will literally be knocking on the stage door. I’ll show up to Calgary in February. I’m coming.
BEN: Freezing your tail off at the gate of the soundstage.
JOE: Exactly. [Laughs]
JORDAN: Do it.
JOE: So, but is there something that you guys do as the Gorg performers to like, either before the season started or before each performance to just get into character or get into the groove of that synchronicity?
BEN: Well, I think the, another thing we sort of figured out on season one that we carried through season two was how we would work the day out on a Gorg-day, where we’d first just step through the camera blocking with the director, but always having the voice and face-puppeteer right close by. And it’s a collaboration about like how the physical scene will actually take place on stage. And then, you know, they light it and get the cameras in place and we do it again with the heads off, with the voice actors just in our ears and step through it again. And again, it’s a conversation. Hey, get to the steps a little sooner than then throw the head back towards the camera before I say the line or I’ll say hold up on that line till I can get up into the spot and pick up the prop or you know, whatever it is.
And so it really is a collaboration like all the way through the day. And even once we’re in our heads, then we can hear the voice actors in our ears. So there’s always little notes and suggestions and yeah, back and forth. It must sound insane on the walkie-talkie system, the things that we say back and forth to each other.
JOE: Oh, I’m sure. Yeah. All right. So big question here. Thinking about the whole season, what do you think was the coolest thing that you got to see or do on this entire season of Fraggle Rock?
JORDAN: Ooh.
BEN: I think my favorite day was when I got to do the puppetry for the Great Glitterini in episode five. And that came right after we shot the gorgs’ scenes from that episode. It was like probably a 10-hour gorg day. And then the Glitterini day was like a 16-hour shooting day and shot all of his scenes basically in that one day. And it was a marathon. And I loved every second of it. It was just like how is this? I’m performing a Rollie Krewson puppet that’s being voiced by Adam Lambert, directed by Johnny T. And, you know, and such a special episode of television, just the message and everything. Yeah, that’s an easy career highlight.
JOE: Amazing. Yeah.
JORDAN: I think for me, I’m going to piggyback a little bit on what Ben said. The glitter globe day was a crazy-long day. And amazing work was accomplished. But for me, the thing that stuck out the most was working so closely with Kanja [Chen] in such a meaningful way.
Because, and I’ll make this quick, but he and I met over a decade ago in a small park in Toronto for the first time. And it was like this brother that I’d always had. It was nuts. It was like, wait, how have we just met? And we just instantly grew so close and he was such an encouragement in my life and my career. He, you know, he would give me all the who’s, what’s and where’s to avoid and, you know, what to do and how to navigate. And so he’s always been very much a supporter of mine.
And then from that little tiny park in Toronto to this world-class soundstage in Calgary, Wembley and Pogey together having this profound moment in their lives. And it’s, we just kept looking at each other like, how? How did this happen? Sharing that with Kanja was very special for me and I think about it a lot. We certainly talk about it a lot. It’s just one of those things. And I’d like to think that the emotion that we were experiencing behind the scenes is part of what was fueling the emotion that comes through on the screen. It was a beautiful day. Tough, but beautiful.
JOE: I was going to say it absolutely comes across on screen. There’s, not just a connection between the two of you, but you could sense that profoundness of what the characters are going through, the brilliant script of that episode, and the care that everyone put into it. That’s going to be a really fun one for us to really break into in a couple of weeks here on this podcast. I think that’s been a really special episode for everybody. So thank you guys for doing such a great job with that.
But today we’re actually talking about a different episode. We’re gonna talk about “The Twisty-Turny-Thon.” You guys ready to break into this thing?
JORDAN: Let’s do it.
BEN: Oh yeah.
JOE: All right. Well, this episode starts with Red cleaning her trophy shelf. She’s got all these cool props all over, these interesting trophies. I bet you whoever made these props knows like, oh, this is one she got for rock hockey and this is the one she got for, you know, whatever. Like, this one she made for herself because she was like, get a trophy day. I’d love to find out more about the stories that we’re not going to get from all these great props.
BEN: Oh yeah, the art department on this show, it constantly outdoes themselves. Like the level of detail in every little prop that they put on a shelf and dress the set with is just, it’s so good. JORDAN: And the giddiness around it.
JOE: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so joyful. And even like, she’s got this feather duster that kind of looks like a radish. Like all these props are amazing. I would buy any of these. Not even if they were Fraggle Rock branded. Just like a cool thing to have in my home to make it look quirky. I love it.
Mokey shows up with a gluey rudey on her tail, which is like this little squid-looking guy. It’s like a tiny little puppet. What do you think, it’s like three or four inches tall.
BEN: At most.
JOE: Can you tell me, what is gluey rudey?
BEN: You mean, in the world of Fraggle Rock or like the puppet?
JOE: Yeah. But both. Actually both.
BEN: Well, I know the puppet was built, I believe by Pete [Brook] in the creature shop in Calgary. And I think they 3D printed a mold. And so it’s got all this little tiny detail, but like you couldn’t really achieve that with a regular sculpt because it’s so small. And then it’s cast in silicone. And it just has this little trigger mouth and can kind of squish just by pulling the rod up and down. And Frank does such a great job with this weirdo little character. Frank Meschkuleit voiced him.
JOE: That’s great. I love it. I love that anything can show up in Fraggle Rock and that you guys built this tiny little puppet for this one tiny scene. That’s insane to me that that was approved. And I’m so grateful.
BEN: Keep your eye out for gluey rudey. He’s going to come back.
JOE: Oh, good. Okay. All right. All you gluey rudey fans out there.
BEN: It’s actually, not to jump around to another episode.
JOE: No, go for it.
BEN: My favorite, favorite moments that happened on set was in the Mezzo concert scene. They, you know, they had all the bleachers where everyone was sitting and for whatever reason they put Icy Joe beside gluey Rudey. It was like the biggest puppet on set. And I was doing Icy Joe for that shot and had her like come down into the shot and there’s like just them eye to eye. It’s like the most insane thing.
[Joe and Ben laugh]
JOE: I love it. So yes, he’s this little squid-guy. He insults their cave and then a gust of wind comes and blows them away. Blows him away. And I assume he’s matted into the scene as he flies away. Like, I don’t know how you guys made him look like he’s floating. Were you there? Do you remember?
JORDAN: Probably in the blue cube. Probably did that in the blue screen unit.
JOE: Yeah, that makes sense. These gusts of wind, they’re all anyone can talk about. Red says, “The wind blew this around. The wind blew that around. Hi, Red.” That last one was Pogey saying hi to Red. Pogey pops up. I love Pogey. I just have to say that.
BEN: Same.
JOE: I like when Pogey shows up in an episode. He’s great. They’re great. Excuse me. I have to update the pronouns in my noggin here. So today is the Twisty-Turny-Thon. And Red is convinced she’s gonna win because she knows the course like the back of her baloobius. Even though she shows us that she doesn’t know which side of the baloobius is the back. And Mokey is gonna try to paint the race while racing, which is a very Mokey thing to do. I like that a lot.
We get a big scene of the great hall. All the Fraggles are getting ready to race. And there’s all these gusts of wind blowing around. Boober says one upside to the windstorm, there’s lots of cleanup to do. And I love there’s a broom that just goes smack right into his hand, which seems like one of those puppetry tricks that’s probably a lot more complicated than it looks.
Is that accurate? Do you think?
BEN: I mean, I think someone just like drags the broom back out of the frame. It’s probably actually simpler to do with a puppet than with a human actor because, you know, we don’t see below the frame. So I wouldn’t be worried if I saw that on the script and I was doing the puppetry.
JOE: Fair enough.
BEN: I don’t actually remember how we did that. Yeah.
JORDAN: That is one of the things you eye. You don’t use a monitor for that. You just eye it. had another one.
JOE: You just look straight up?
JORDAN: Yeah. There’s no use using a monitor.
JOE: That feels like cheating. Doesn’t it? Doesn’t it feel like cheating when you don’t use a monitor?
JORDAN: Well, that’s what we’re told in those workshops, but it’s very helpful sometimes.
JOE: I’m sure.
BEN: Yeah, sometimes you gotta look live. That’s what I was saying. Look up live.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: So, Gobo is not going to race this here. He’s got to figure out what’s going on with the gorgs. Boober reminds him that the rules state, if he’s not racing, he has to nominate someone to take his place. So he says, okay, Boober, you could do it. And Boober, I love it. He’s like, “Boober, your love of the rules got you again.” Poor Boober. That’s going to come back to haunt him in a few minutes.
But we get our first glimpse of Wembley. That’s you, Jordan. You’re Wembley. Did you know that?
JORDAN: Well, thank you for the revelation, dude.
[Ben laughs]
JOE: He gets to coin the phrase gusties. Was that a proud moment for you that you, you’re basically like saying the name of a movie in the movie? Like you get to say the line that will carry through the rest of the season.
JORDAN: I never really thought of it like that. Hmm. Thanks, Joe. I’m going to lord that over everybody for a year. [laughs]
JOE: Yeah, I’m the guy who coined the phrase gusty. It wouldn’t be gusties without me.
JORDAN: Cricket. Cricket.
BEN: And Wembley’s the guy who’s good at naming stuff, right?
JORDAN: (in voice of Wembley) “Shirt.”
JOE: [laughs] The gusties have been blowing him around. He’s having a great time. They’ve been showing him all sorts of interesting things like this tickle flower. And he’s got this, like flower on a spring and they’re having a good time tickling each other. So tell me what’s actually happening below the frame here with you and the tickle flower?
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Hmm. So if I remember this accurately, Ingrid’s with me under the rock, Danny’s to the left doing my left arm. Kanja is down in front doing my right arm and the plant tendrils. Meaning Ingrid’s doing, I think, like the main performance of the plant from underneath with me. Did I make that real confusing? [laughs]
It was one of those Jim [Henson] and Frank [Oz] moments where I was like, I really just want you all to just do your own thing. And this should just be wild and squid-like and crazy. Tendrils and arms everywhere. And, yeah, it worked.
JOE: Yeah, it’s great. Great. Also, I am tickled by the idea that it takes four people to do this, you know?
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: So Mokey is getting ready to paint and run. She is, again, I’m pointing out all the inkspots in this whole season because you have to. She’s being followed by an inkspot who’s carrying her paint palette, which is adorable. And if I were an artist, I don’t think I would be able to paint if my palette wasn’t being held by an inkspot.
BEN: Yeah, I love on this season because the inkspots kind of became a favorite when they were setting up scenes and sequences. They weren’t necessarily always in the script, but I think on season two, there’s a lot more stage direction that says, you know, an inkspot is following her with a palette. An inkspot is handing out drinks. The writers sort of honed in on the inkspots being this like utilitarian cave creature that the Fraggles use. It’s so good.
JOE: Oh, I love that. Yeah, that’s such a fan thing to do. That’s exactly what I would do if I was writing Fraggle Rock. Just more inkspots. Just throw them in everywhere.
BEN: Yeah.
JOE: So there’s this older looking fraggle. I’m saying older because he’s wearing like bifocals and a bowtie and a sweater vest and like kind of looks like he’s got trim around his hair.
BEN: Oh, that’s Rupert.
JOE: Rupert.
BEN: Yeah.
JOE: Okay, that’s what I wanted to ask you guys. Who is this guy?
BEN: He’s in season one. He’s kind of like The Storyteller’s assistant. Like in, when she’s telling the story of Icy Joe, he maybe plays a trumpet. Is that right?
JOE: Oh.
JORDAN: That’s right. That’s right.
JOE: Then I just forgot him from season one. I thought he was a new thing.
BEN: Yeah. And she’s like, “Oh, Rupert, you’ll get it.” Like he’s not very good at it.
JORDAN: (imitating Rupert’s voice) Oh, thank you, my dear.
BEN: Yeah. And that’s Andy Hayward. And Andy was like loved Rupert and would ask the creature shop to put Rupert back together out of whichever, you know, gaggle background fraggle he came from and then Rupert just sort of ended up on the puppet rack all the time. So Andy’s always trying to work him into a shot.
JOE: Oh, that’s nice. Oh, I’m glad to hear that. There are so many fraggles and you guys have been really good about, and by you guys, I mean, all the puppeteers, have been good about sharing stuff on social media, like behind the scenes stuff this year. And we’re learning a lot more about some of these background characters that they have names and personalities. So I want to try to call these out as we see them so that we can be like, “Okay, that’s Rupert. And like he’s bad at blowing the trumpet and he wears bifocals. Okay, got it moving on.”
BEN: Yeah, get Rupert a muppet wiki page. Stat.
JOE: I’m sure he does. I’m sure he has one. [laughs] So I don’t know where Barry Blueberry pops up and he’s here to offer some color commentary. But then a second fraggle pops up right next to him and says, “Actually, Barry, we’ll both be doing color commentary.” And we’re meeting Sherry Contrary for the very first time.
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Woo!
BEN: Yes, yes.
JOE: So the vitriol between the two of them in this episode, and I know like later on when we see them, they seem to get along much better. But they’re just grinning through their teeth at how much they hate each other. And I love it.
JORDAN: It’s a season highlight, man.
JOE: Oh, it’s Good stuff.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: Now I, I want, I’ll be asking Aymee about this later on on the podcast. But do you guys have any, I assume this came up because Aymee is the co-puppet captain, and she’s also just very funny and very talented. And it’s like, okay, let’s give Johnny someone to play against here. Or, I mean, do you know anything else about her background here? Am I just guessing?
BEN: I doubt it had anything to do with Aymee being the co-puppet captain at which she was so awesome. Love Aymee Garcia. I mean, she’s just a genius comedian and such a good singer. So it just was the perfect marriage of writing and performer here.
She only did a couple takes of that song. It was a little different every time. And we were all just in stitches. It was just so funny.
JORDAN: Yeah, I was only going to say that Johnny and Aymee haven’t really had a chance to play off each other like that since the show started up again. And I feel like this was the right time. This was definitely the right couple of characters for that to happen.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: And my favorite, my favorite line is, (imitating Barry Blueberry) What on earth would I do without you, Sher?” (in normal voice) as he exits right. That’s the greatest. [laughs]
JOE: [laughs] And that song that she sings, that Fraggle Anthem.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: Which so I will tell you because we only really hear half of what she’s singing and it’s so like drawn out that I was like, “Is this an old Fraggle song that she’s like deliberately stepping all over?” So I’m actually really happy to hear that she’s improvising the whole thing.
JORDAN: Mmhmm.
JOE: That’s good stuff.
JORDAN: We did a number of those takes, didn’t we?
BEN: Yeah, but the age one was like better than the next. It was so good.
JORDAN: It was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. Yeah.
BEN: It was so funny.
JOE: Put it on the soundtrack, Apple TV+.
BEN: Yeah.
JOE: Yeah. We want to hear.
BEN: Where’s the Fraggle anthem? They should record a straight version of it, the official album record.
JOE: Yeah.
BEN: The Fraggle Anthem.
JOE: No, I think that they should release every improvised version that she recorded on the day. That’s what I want to hear with the laughter in the background of people who can’t contain themselves.
BEN: Oh, it’s so good.
JOE: So the runners for the race, they’re cued to start by the whistle bug, another new puppet here. It’s a bug that looks like a giant whistle. And he doesn’t whistle. He just goes, (in deep voice) “whistle.” (in normal voice) That’s good stuff.
JORDAN: Was that Dan?
JOE: Who is that?
BEN: That was Dan. Yeah.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: Good stuff. Dan.
BEN: It’s so funny.
JOE: I love it.
JORDAN: (in deep voice) Whistle.
JOE: I hope we get to see the whistle bug again sometime. Maybe the whistle bug should get his own episode. Maybe not. You guys were so enthusiastic about that idea. Wow. Just calm down.
BEN: No, I love the whistle bug. He’s a bit one note.
[Joe laughs]
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Aww.
JOE: He’s a one note character. Ah.
JORDAN: Get out, Ben.
JOE: So Boober immediately falls and he scrapes his shoulder, but he’s ecstatic because now he can sit the whole race out. He walks away feigning injury. But Pogey is on the sideline frantically waving their pom-pom, cheering Boober on. What a sport.
BEN: Do you remember, Jordan, when we shot that button with Pogey cheering? The director just did not call cut and Kanja went for so long as Pogey just never losing any enthusiasm. It was so funny.
JORDAN: It was.
BEN: It was.
JORDAN: Everybody was howling, dying, sweating. It was just one of those moments that, you know, I wish I could have lived in it. [laughs]
BEN: I wish there was an extra five minutes in the episode that they could have just included that whole run of Pogey cheering.
JORDAN: Just the end credits. Just the credits flashing over, (in mock yelling) “Yeah! Go Boober! You fell down but you got up!” (in normal voice) That would be so great. Oh, well.
BEN: Yeah.
JOE: Yep. Release, Apple TV, are you listening? Like give us some bonus features here. All right.
We get our first song of the episode. It is “I Knew I Was Good,” which was from the old original Fraggle Rock. Comes from the episode “A Friend in Need.” Here it’s sung by Red. But in the original, it was sung by Gobo. Did you know it also appeared in an episode of The Animal Show?
JORDAN: What?
JOE: Have you seen The Animal Show? It’s in an episode of that.
BEN: Yeah. Of course.
JOE: Yeah.
BEN: Which animal?
JOE: Oh, you know, I looked it up. It was…I want to say it was a warthog. I don’t remember. That’s a good question. Well, everyone, go to the Muppet Wiki.
BEN: I think Karen Prell worked on that. I wonder if she was featured on that episode.
JOE: Oh, that’s a good question. We’ll have to ask her when she comes back, comes back to the podcast.
So as Red is like singing and she’s passing all these Fraggles that are cheering on the racers and stuff like that, but we also see some other characters, including a gorg chicken.
BEN: Yes.
JOE: Which is such a fascinating puppet. It’s this, like big ugly chicken with this huge beak, this like jaw of a beak. It’s gorgeous. Gorg, gorg-geous.
BEN: Gorg-geous. And that, okay, I remember, Karen Prell talking about that puppet and how she couldn’t remember them using it on the original series. And I don’t think… I remember looking around a little on the Muppet Wiki to see if I could figure it out, but I couldn’t figure out where it had actually been used, but there’s a Michael Frith illustration or design, I guess. So it was designed and made, but, and Karen said, I can’t imagine us making something and not using it. But there’s a muppet sleuth out there that can find out.
JOE: Yeah, my memory here, when we saw a photo of it in one of those behind the scenes pictures was people came up with the same conclusion. That, you know, it wasn’t used. But what a gorgeous build. I mean, my guess is that like, because we never really saw any other creatures in the Gorg’s garden, it didn’t make any sense to have a gorg creature just like wandering around Fraggle Rock. But now, who cares? It just fills in the background. It’s fun.
BEN: It wandered off from the Gorg’s garden and ended up in Fraggle Rock and that’s where it lives now.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: And of course he was accepted immediately.
JOE: There you go. Yeah. He was probably going to be eaten in the Gorg’s garden.
JORDAN: Right.
JOE: It’s good that he found the Fraggle hole. I also love we see Large Marvin in the race, and he’s wearing this incredible tracksuit. It’s like shiny. He’s got the stripes down the side. It’s great. And the inkspots, once again, they’re there handing out cups of water like you would in a race. And Marvin just grabs a whole inkspot, downs the water the inkspot is holding. Good stuff. I love it.
The wind, the gusties, they blew a bunch of rocks into the way of the course, and Red decides she’s going to stay on course and climb over the rocks. And who’s on top? It’s our buddy, Wembley. The gusty’s blew him up there. And now they’re tied. They’re neck and neck says Sherry Contrary for the race.
I don’t know. Is there anything? What are these rocks made of that you’re on top of? Are they actually like hard material or are they more like soft carved foam?
JORDAN: Yeah, it’s just coated styrofoam, carved. Right?
BEN: Yeah. Or like expanding insulation.
JORDAN: Mmm.
BEN: I think they had molds that they could put expanding foam. But makes it super modular. They can really like stack them up. They’re pretty light and they can hold them together with toothpicks. Or like barbecue skewers.
JORDAN: [laughs] Yeah.
BEN: A lot of the set was like, held together that way.
[All laugh]
JOE: That sounds dangerous.
BEN: It was great to pin your lines on to as well.
JOE: Ah. Yeah.
BEN: Can keep your script close by.
JOE: We get a little check-in with the doozers here. They don’t have much of a plot in this episode, but they’re working on getting their turbines moving, but they want to get the gusties to help them out, but they need to know where the gusties are coming from. It doesn’t really matter for today, but there’s a great runner here that will take us through later on, that the Architect Doozer says that he gave himself a bad haircut. And he’s ashamed to show it to everybody, which is such a, like, that’s got to be a Johnny T. improv, right?
BEN: I think that was scripted, but I’m sure the Architect’s character had to be inspired by Johnny between takes as the Architect. Because he would do this sort of… I won’t do it justice. When you have him on, you have to get him to just do a little bit of Architect banter. But he’s like sort of telling Cotterpin about his career in show business, I would say is the gist of the bit.
[Joe laughs]
BEN: But it’s always like, he worked with someone, but it’s like a B name or a C name. Or you know, “I was a day player on Happy Days. Like that kind of thing. That was terrible, but like, you know, talking about being an understudy at the summer stock theater, you know, that kind of like old show business talk. It’s so funny.
JORDAN: And it never ends.
BEN: And Donna Kimball as Cotterpin is always like, (imitates Cotterpin) “That’s right, sir. Sure thing, sir. What a resume, sir.” (in normal voice) Yeah, that’s great.
JOE: [laughs] Oh, I love it. Were either of you doozers in this episode? Do you recall?
BEN: I think I was doing Andy’s hands…why can’t I think of his name? Uh, Wrench? Right? Wrench. That’s his name? Oh my God.
JOE: There is a Wrench.
BEN: Wrench. Wrench. There’s Turbo and Wrench. Yeah. Yeah.
JOE: That sounds right. Yeah.
BEN: Cause for the most part, the principal doozers would be the RC, you know, rigs. They would sit off camera and then we would be under the stage doing the hands. And I’m pretty sure I’m doing, yeah, Andy’s hands on that one.
JOE: Cool.
JORDAN: I have a hard time remembering which ones I did the hands on. [laughs]
JOE: That’s okay. You don’t actually have to remember. These things are important to certain people.
JORDAN: Right.
JOE: But not every people.
BEN: The doozer scenes were often shot by a second unit. Like they’d have it on another sound stage. They’d have the doozer setups because they took so long to really get all together. You know, adding in all the layers of doozers and getting it all working. So oftentimes they’d spend all day setting it up and then they’d rush puppeteers in from the other stage during, you know, a moment of pause over there. And we’d do it real quick and then back on the other stage before we had time to really like process what it was, you know.
JOE: So are there times where you’ll just have a minute of downtime and someone will go, “Oh, great. I need you to come and be a background doozer real quick,” like you weren’t prepared to do that, but you’re just going to do it anyway?
BEN: For sure.
JOE: Wow. What a job. We have a check-in at the Gorg’s garden. Junior is watering Junior, Jr. who is like almost as tall as Junior.
BEN: They grow up so fast.
JOE: They sure do. I feel like this is going to be like the multi-season arc of Junior, Jr., becoming, I don’t know, like a big oak tree by the end.
BEN: Ooooh.
JOE: Am I spoiling things?
BEN: I hadn’t thought about that. That’s great.
JOE: Maybe I shouldn’t have. I don’t know.
JORDAN: You may have to sign a form at some point.
JOE: Oh, geez. Or they’ll have to pay me for my brilliant idea.
JORDAN: Not bad. [laughs]
JOE: That a tree grows. A tree grows in the Gorg’s garden. Gobo surprises Junior, who sprays Gobo with his watering can, slips and falls. We get this whole great moment here, Ben, of some physical comedy.
BEN: That was actually, okay, I have to say that was a stunt person. On the wide shot where Junior, like, really falls on his butt. I begged and pleaded. I asked so many times to do it myself, but our producer, Chris Plourde, decided to put my safety as a priority, which I guess I understand. But that stunt double did that a bunch of times and like no mat. No pad. Nothing. That was,
JOE: Wow.
BEN: I have so much respect for stunt people. I had never really watched a stunt. I was so scared. I was so nervous to sit there watching it happen, but it was so worth it. It turned out so well. It’s a great, great moment.
JOE: Yeah. I mean, good for you for not taking credit, but I really thought it was you. [laughs]
BEN: Thanks.
JOE: Oh, one thing that I never noticed before is that Junior has these little cleats at the bottom of his, of like just the front of his shoes, like on the bottom near the front of his shoes.
BEN: Yeah.
JOE: Yeah. Like they kind of curl up a little bit. Is there either a practical purpose to it or a hindrance to your performance? Having those little bumps on his feet?
BEN: Okay, here’s what I think. No. No hindrance to my performance. What I believe is, I’ve worked on mascot, you know, walk-around costume builds at Henson and they’ve talked about always putting like a little bit of a curve up at the toe because it makes it safer when you’re walking around. Like you’re less likely to catch on something. Because the feet are so big that your human feet are set pretty far back from the toes. So it’s always just like a practical thing for the safety of the performer.
And then I think the cleats are on there to give it a little more visual interest than just a curved up toe. I don’t know that for sure, but that’s my guess that you could kind of see the curve of the shoe. So those kind of, you know, make it less severe. It’s a little more interesting visually.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: I buy it.
JOE: No, that’s it. It is interesting. I was interested enough to talk about it on a podcast.
[Jordan and Ben laugh]
BEN: And that’s a holdover. The original Junior had that same thing.
JOE: Oh, cool. Okay, I’ll have to look for that when I watch the old show. Yeah. Pa Gorg shows up and Junior like balls Gobo up, tiny little Gobo up, and throws him across the garden. So I was going to go back and pause and see exactly how you guys did this, but I would rather hear you talk about it. What are you actually doing here? Do you have anything in your hands?
BEN: Yeah, there was, they made a Throw-bo.
JOE: [laughs] Yeah.
BEN: And I think they actually bought a stuffed animal from like the 80s on eBay and then sort of tricked it out to look a little more like the puppet. Because there is a mini-scale Gobo rod puppet, but you can’t really take the controller off of it to throw it and you wouldn’t want to damage it.
So they had this sort of stunt double Gobo. And then they cut it together really nicely with the full-size puppet being thrown into a pile of leaves. But the leaves are slightly bigger scale. So it all matches.
JOE: Yeah.
BEN: So the art direction on this show is just so incredible. Like the set piece where Gobo lands in the pile of leaves was built, that bridge, all of that just for that one moment and the giant pile of leaves and watching Johnny throw the, you know, there’s a stunt full-size Gobo, you know, throw puppet that he would use, but then it’s cut together just nicely and, and you don’t stay on anything for too long and it looks seamless.
JORDAN: So that was a Fisher Price Gobo? Is that what you’re telling me?
BEN: I think so. Yeah.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: Amazing. I love that.
JOE: I heard this as well about the Fisher Price Gobo. And so that means anyone who’s listening to this, if you also own the Fisher Price Gobo, then you’re like one degree removed from an actual Fraggle Rock prop. Right? [laughs] Is that how it works?
BEN: Pretty close.
JOE: You own Henson history. That’s how it works.
JORDAN: Ebay prices about to skyrocket.
JOE: That’s right.
JORDAN: Whoo.
JOE: So I have one other question about Junior as long as we’re…I’m watching this scene and like Junior. This is, I think when he’s sitting and Pa is behind him, and his eyes are moving back and forth and I had forgotten that Junior has the mech where his eyes go back and forth. So correct me if I’m wrong, the camera is still, for what you’re seeing, is still in Junior’s eye. Right?
BEN: Oh. No.
JOE: For gorg vision. Oh no?
BEN: Yes. The gorg vision has changed now. I think the camera in the pupil is too visible on like 4k or whatever 80k that we shoot it in.
JOE: Oh, sure. Sure.
BEN: And they actually tried to hide the spy cam in different places on the head, but we ended up just using a monitor from the camera. I just see the camera feed in my internal monitor more like how Big Bird, I guess, is performed. And I have a little bit of vision out of the mouth, but there’s no more gorg vision. I think Ma and Pa still have the capabilities. I think Andy tended to use gorg vision. I can’t remember if Ingrid… I think they might have switched back and forth. They have the option, but I just use the regular camera.
JOE: So that negates my question, but can you imagine like how complicated it would be if gorg vision shifted back and forth with the eyes?
BEN: Right. Yeah, that would not…
JOE: That would be so disorienting.
BEN: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that wouldn’t work.
JOE: So, Red is still in the race. The gusties have blown a bunch of ouchi cones onto the route.
JORDAN: (mimicking Sharry Contrary) Actually Joe, they’re pronounced oo-chie cones.
JOE: Thank you, Sherry. [laughs]
BEN: Very good. Very good.
JOE: And they’re like pine cones that look like they’re spray painted red and blue. A cheap prop, but effective. And Wembley found a bunch of bouncy mushrooms. So Red runs across like they’re hot coals and Wembley just kind of bounces. So what’s happening here with you and Wembley, Jordan? Are you on a green screen? Do you have…how many puppeteers do you have? Like, how are you doing this bouncing effect?
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Yeah, we did that in front of a screen and it was again, me, Kanja and Ingrid. Kanja on, I think, right hand. Ingrid on feet. Me on left hand and main performance and we’re literally just walking along together, just like beat, beat, beat. And of course, each time we had a slightly different movement that we wanted to do as he gains, you know, inertia or whatever.
And, yeah, that was really fun. I was the closest to being a kid on that particular day. I think. [laughs] You know, I could do that all day.
JOE: Yeah. It’s like Mario jumps like one, two, three. The third one is the full.
JORDAN: Yeah. [Jordan makes sounds similar to Mario video games]
JOE: Yeah, exactly. I love it. Boober is on the sidelines and he’s cheering Wembley on. This is my favorite part of the episode, by the way. There’s this other fraggle. He asks Boober, “Oh, didn’t you hurt your shoulder, you know, moving your arms around?” And Boober says, “Oh, my doctor told me to do that. He told me it’d be good for it.” And he says, “Well, who’s your doctor?” And the camera pans to Boober on the other side of him dressed as a doctor saying, “Excuse me, please don’t pester my patient. He’s trying to heal.” And the camera pans back to Boober and then back to the doctor and the doctor’s gone at this point.
JORDAN: [laughs] I love those jokes so much.
JOE: Wow. So, I mean, I don’t want to ask like in canon what’s happening because I don’t think we’re supposed to know. But in camera, are there two Boober puppets?
BEN: Yeah, Frank was doing the first Boober and then Andy, I think, did Boober two. And of course, Dave [Goelz] dubs all the voices in post because there’s multiple Boober puppets. So one was just dressed as a doctor and, yeah. Pop in; pop out.
JOE: Yeah.
BEN: I think that was the first line I ever got to speak on Fraggle Rock. That’s my vocal debut.
JOE: Wait, which? You’re the…
BEN: The confused green Fraggle. Yeah.
JOE: Oh, that is you. Okay, good.
BEN: Yeah, yeah.
JOE: Do you want to give him a name right now? In case he doesn’t have an official name?
BEN: No, I can’t. I can’t possibly.
JOE: You gotta do it.
BEN: It’s not my job.
JOE: Just make up a name.
BEN: Agh. What’s his name?
JOE: We’re gonna make a canon. Right now.
[Jordan laughs]
BEN: Ben Fraggle.
JOE: Ben Fraggle. It’s done. We’ve named it after you. And his whole personality is based around asking who people’s doctors are.
BEN: [laughs] That’s right. And yeah, I think right around that time too was like Christmas and we had a cast screening of Emmet Otter’s Jug-Band Christmas.
JOE: Perfect.
BEN: At like a local theater that we rented out and Dave Goelz sent in a greeting for everyone that played before Emmet Otter and then Karen Prell introduced Muppet Christmas Carol, which was the feature that night. And Jordan, I believe, organized all of it for us. It was like such a core memory and such a beautiful bonding experience for the crew and seeing. And everyone got to bring their families and it was really special.
But I think, at the time, the voice, listening to it back of him, oh, I’m just doing Wendell Porcupine because we’d watched Emmet Otter.
JORDAN: Oh my god.
BEN: So it’s my homage to Dave Goelz.
JORDAN: Nice.
JOE: To be fair, Dave Goelz is also doing an impression of Wendell Porcupine when he does Beaureguard. So you’re not the only one.
BEN: There you go.
JOE: Right.
JORDAN: (imitating voice of Wendell Porcupine) Do you have mashed potatoes?
BEN: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JOE: That’s a perfect movie, by the way. Perfect special. Emmet Otter.
BEN: Best ever.
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Have you ever read the book?
JOE: I have it. It’s on the shelf right behind me. Yeah.
JORDAN: So delightful.
JOE: It really is.
JORDAN: I only picked it up a year ago.
JOE: It’s surprising that it’s such a faithful adaptation. I genuinely didn’t realize. Like they name the songs that were not written, which is fascinating to me.
JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.
JOE: Yeah. That’s a good book. The Hobans. Russell and Lillian Hoban.
JORDAN: That’s right.
JOE: So, at this point in the episode, we have a check-in with Doc and Sprocket. Again, we don’t need to get too much into it because it’s just a little part of the episode. But Doc has a new schedule and she has to work at strange hours. So she leaves Sprocket alone with a webcam. But he makes friends with a squirrel outside his window. Do you know who’s performing the squirrel?
JORDAN: Frank. Ingrid. And maybe that’s it.
JOE: Took two people to do that squirrel? That little hand puppet?
JORDAN: May have been a two-fer. Yeah.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: I love that puppet. [laughs]
JOE: It’s so cute.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: It doesn’t really look like a muppet puppet, but it does look very cute, like, squirrely-squirrel.
JORDAN: Mmhmm. I’ve got good BTS of that puppet. You just reminded me.
JOE: Oh yeah?
JORDAN: Yeah. While they were rehearsing and figuring out the movements and everything, I would just put my face in the window and just stare and it would just be like, [makes several short, squeaky grunting noises] It was freaking awesome, man.
[Joe laughs]
JORDAN; One of the coolest puppets on season two, but Fluffinella is another, but we’ll save that.
JOE: Oh, yeah. No. We’re excited to talk about Fluffanella. We got Fluffinella stories that need to be shared here.
Back at the race, Red is at a rope bridge that will take her to the finish line. But the bridge is unstable. It’s like the bridge from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
JORDAN: Temple of Doom. Yes.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: I made the same jokes.
[Joe laughs]
JORDAN: (In voice of Wembley) Kali ma!
JOE: [laughs] That’s funny. The bridge is unstable. It sways. It collapses. And Red falls, but Wembley catches her tail with his tail. Then there’s so much happening in these, like, five seconds. Jordan, can you explain to me a little bit about what you guys are doing behind the scenes?
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Yeah. I need to try to remember. So, man, there were a lot of people on that. Ben, were you there?
BEN: I don’t think so. I think I was on another stage. I can’t remember though.
JORDAN: It was all in pieces, man. It was like, obviously there was the reaction stuff and then we do one of those things where Wembley quickly whips around. That’s our cut. And then we had the two armatured dolls basically linked together. And there was some kind of a rig there where they were pulling on the two puppets. And then it was like a slingshot effect or like an elastic band effect where it was (makes sound effect similar to releasing a tense band). And, that was really cool, watching them plummet like that.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: But yeah, and then it was all and then they cut to the other cavern. And of course we get the big hard landing. But it was actually pretty straight forward once everyone knew what they were doing. But it was, I think part of the reason why it looked so good is that we actually just did it armatured. I feel like if we had done it all in front of blue screen stuff, eh, I just don’t know it would have looked as good.
I really think those quick cuts really made it, between the reaction stuff and the landing. It’s just beautiful.
JOE: This is something that I very much appreciate about all of Back to the Rock is that because you are mixing different types of puppetry and different types of technology so much, there’s not an over-reliance on the newest, hottest, coolest tech. And we do get a little bit of things like Throw-bo. Like we do just yeet a puppet sometimes because that will look best.
And this is something that I’ve, you know, I’ve complained a little bit about with the Disney Muppets where they’ve gotten to a point where they want it to look so good and things like, they’ve got green screen and they’re matting things out and they’re CGIing things to assist in this and that. And it’s like, back in the day, they would have stapled a puppet to a string and they would have just yanked it around and made it look like it’s flailing around like a ragdoll and that would have been great. So I like that there’s that subtle mix here that everything kind of looks real but also looks fun because you are just yeeting puppets sometimes.
Yeah, no, I think it’s great.
JORDAN: I think what I love about this series is that we’re using digital effects the way they were always meant to be. Which is just a tool. Period. A tool on your belt and yeah, it’s such a thrill watching it now and just thinking like man, was I even there? It’s like that’s nuts. You know, but that’s how it’s supposed to be. It’s mostly practical and we use the tools to soften the edges that need to be softened and they do it so gracefully on the show. Even more this season. I think.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: We’ll find out what happens once they plummet in a second. But first we have to check back in with the gorgs. Junior is explaining to Gobo that PA doesn’t want him to be friends with the fraggles. So Gobo pulls out a postcard and we get our Uncle Traveling Matt moment. He’s at an amusement park and he’s just cheating at all of the amusement park rides. And he wins one of those like clappy hand things or rather he steals it from a child. One of those clappy hands, the wand that you shake and it claps.
[Jordan laughs]
JOE: He really does just like he cheats and then he steals from a child and then he gets arrested. That’s what happens in this postcard.
[Ben laughs]
JORDAN: He’s a POS. Wow.
JOE: Yeah. [laughs]
BEN: And he has no clue.
JOE: No clue. Also we see as he’s being kind of toted away by security, where it says security on the back of their uniforms. It’s in Spanish, which tells me this was filmed or at least takes place somewhere maybe outside the United States. Do you have any clue where that may have been?
BEN: I believe they did some of the Matt postcards in Mexico. I think they went, but I don’t know if it was just Mexico. So they could have been elsewhere too, but I know there’s at least one that they shot there. So they might have done a few of them. I didn’t clock that.
JOE: Sure.
BEN: Wow.
JOE: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, there’s definitely some international stuff happening with Matt this season. We’re going to kind of track his movements. See how far he traveled and raise some questions about how he traveled.
But yeah, but interesting. Like this is, you know, it’s rare for like an actual confirmation. You know, there’s things like, I think from the old show where it’s like, oh, well, it seems like he’s in Australia, but that could also just be an Australian person in LA. Who knows? But yeah, here, yeah, seems like he made it to Mexico somehow. Made it over the border without a passport.
But there’s also some interesting prop stuff happening here. We were talking about the props earlier with the leaves. Where Gobo hands Junior the postcard and he reaches out a normal-size postcard and Junior grabs a tiny postcard. Identical postcard. And then the same thing with the clapper hands. He gives him the clapper hands and he’s got the tiny little clapper hands. The props team on Back to the Rock. They’re good at their jobs.
BEN: Yeah, so good.
JOE: Yep.
BEN: And again, using the mixing of different puppet setups to cut together to create the bigger effect. And we did it on season one too, where Gobo and Junior sort of shake hands with his giant mitt and Gobo’s tiny little hand. And then again, here, you see just like for one shot, they use the mini Gobo puppet with a tiny postcard when you see Junior’s full hand. And then there’s like, yeah, the miniature version of the clappy hands, which didn’t clap quite as well, because they’re just so small.
JOE: [laughs] It’s true.
BEN: Yeah, just great. And I loved how we did that scene with Junior and Gobo because we basically did it in real time. Like Johnny was in the blue cube on the same sound stage as the gorg castle. And in my monitor, I could see where Gobo would be in the shot.
JOE: That’s cool.
BEN: So I really could react to how Johnny was puppeteering his character even though we were miles apart it felt like.
JOE: I love that. That’s great. And again, like we’re talking about this technology. That’s how the technology should be used. It’s subtle. It’s useful for your performance. The fact that you guys can do that live is, I don’t know, that seems like a gift that you can do that.
BEN: Yeah, it’s great.
JOE: Yeah. So yeah, so Red and Wembley fell down this pit. You would think, like, I think any other show, because they caught each other, they would lift up and then find a way around, but they just fall and they’re fine.
JORDAN: [laughs] Yeah.
JOE: Sure. There could have been anything down there. Wembley hears a whistling sound behind them. He’s like, “Let’s follow that. That seems like the way.” And Red’s like, “No, no, no, I don’t want to go backward.” And Wembley explains to her, he doesn’t just fly with the wind. He is looking at the way things are, not the way they used to be. And bingo, I think that’s our moral of the story here. Things are changing and we have to be flexible.
Do you think this is also a metaphor for Back to the Rock as a whole for anyone who might be, for any reason, unfavorably comparing this to the old series to say like, things are changing. And we have to be flexible because it’s a different time now.
JORDAN: That’s interesting. Joe, I never thought of that. I never thought of that. It’s possible. However, unlikely, in my mind. [laughs]
JOE: Maybe not a deliberate metaphor, but it is a metaphor now, because I came up with it.
JORDAN: I like that. I like that. And I believe in it. You know, I think that change is terrifying for some people, especially things that are tied to our childhoods, to a very formative period in our lives. And it’s difficult to let go. It’s difficult. You know, like for me, it’s one thing. I have a, I’m able to separate the business stuff from the memory stuff. I’ll be like, I got my 600 hours of whatever. Now it’s this generation’s turn to build their new memories. That’s fine.
But it’s not like that. It’s not the same for everyone. And I do like the idea that this episode kind of might address that a little bit because certainly our series has had, you know, it stirred up some controversy among fans when it was first coming down the pike. And I think for the most part, people have come around to seeing that our intentions are true. And whatever alterations there have been to this world are pretty acceptable. You know?
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: Not all that bad, you know. Pushing things forward in a way that I think is acceptable for today’s market, but also what we constitute humor today. And also what’s going on in the world.
JOE: Mmhmm.
JORDAN: So no, I like that idea, Joe. I hadn’t thought of that before, but I am totally running with that now.
JOE: Great.
JORDAN: (in voice of stuff professor-type) Yes. Yes. Episode two.
JOE: Yeah. The most meta episode of all of them. Yeah.
Here is where we get our second song of the episode. It’s “Wind Will Guide You.” This is an original song. Very lovely. You sing it very, very well, Jordan. Well done.
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Thank you, sir. Thank you.
JOE: Red and Wembley are exploring some new caves. They see some new creatures, including a bunch of rock clingers. That’s from an old original series episode, “Uncle Matt Comes Home.” They’re these thin, pink creatures that kind of look like pink snerfs, if you know what a snerf is. Chances are if you know what a snerf is, you also know what a rock clinger is.
BEN: It’s kind of like a blatch, too. If maybe your terminology’s a little different. Sorta the same puppet.
JOE: Yeah.
BEN: The purple-bearded black-bearded blatch. Something like that.
JOE: Yeah. And what were the things from Earth to Ned? Those…
BEN: Oh, yeah.
JOE: Those guys. Those things. Whatever those were called.
BEN: Sort of similar, but it’s like a glove with a dowel that can slide up and down to make the neck grow and shrink and the eyes are mounted on top of the dowel. So it can like crawl along and then stretch its neck up tall.
JOE: Yeah.
BEN: If you look really closely. There’s a couple of them that are hand puppets too. Like in the foreground but they all have this like tongue slack out of the side of their mouth. They’re great.
JOE: And there’s also like all these big, jellyfish-looking creatures, which I think we’ve seen before on Fraggle Rock.
BEN: Sproingers.
JOE: Sproingers.
BEN: Yeah. And I think those are from the original series. Both the, whatever you call…the rock clingers and the sproingers were also pulled out of storage and refurbished.
JOE: Great. And they’re gorgeous. I mean, how cool? What a colorful world this is. I love it.
BEN: And what a beautiful job Jordan and Karen did that, this tracking shot that moves, its continuous, right? There’s no cut. It goes basically through the whole song as they weave through these caves. And it was the way it was lit, it was just such a magical day. I’ll always remember shooting that song.
JORDAN: IIt was. Yeah. You could feel it in the air. It was just a beautiful time to all be together. And there was a really, like this electrified feeling when it was all done. And it was, we were still pretty early on in the shoot, I guess. So, yeah. We needed that. That was beautiful.
JOE: You know, speaking of Karen Prell, you spent a lot of time with her, Jordan, on this episode. Do you want to talk a little bit about working with Karen Prell? The legend.
JORDAN: I’d love to. I’d love to. So right off the bat, Karen and I agreed that this episode was huge because Red and Wembley haven’t really been developed. Their friendship really hasn’t been explored too deeply. And so this was an opportunity to go there and have fun with it and learn things that we could carry forward. And so we prepared like crazy for it.
And for that song, it just, it meant so much to us that we were at a point where we were just finishing each other sentences in terms of, like, “And then this. And then this. And then, and I kind of feel like this is the emotion here.” And the ways that we would deconstruct a scene and just try to make it as good as it could possibly be.
It was such a fun experience with Karen as a scene partner. I mean, I just, I cannot sing her praises enough. She was incredibly warm and welcoming to me on season one, you know, taking over for Steve Whitmire. And I think this season we just, just like Red and Wembley, we explored a new depth of our relationship and it was really special for me. And I hope it was for her too. Because, yeah, man.
JOE: That’s great.
JORDAN: I’m new.
JOE: What a gift.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: What a gift to hang out with her. Just to like be in her presence. That’s so cool.
JORDAN: Yeah, it is.
JOE: I love it.
JORDAN: By the way, by the way, she seems on the surface like she’s very quiet and timid. And then suddenly she’ll just be like, “Move out of the way, slowpokes.” [laughs] She’s got this amazing way to just catch you off guard. I love that about her. She’s also very athletic; very athletic. She could probably kill the three of us. She’s amazing. Amazing person.
BEN: Definitely.
JORDAN: Yeah, adventurous, full of surprises. I really love Karen. She’s so cool.
JOE: So what you’re telling me is don’t get in her way.
JORDAN: Oh, no, no.
JOE: Don’t mess with Karen Prell. Okay. Done.
JORDAN: Yeah. She’s a machine. A-m-a-m, a machine.
JOE: So yeah, so Wembley and Red, they see all these cool creatures. They go through this place with these glowing vines that look like Christmas lights. And they find this icicle cavern that makes music like a wind chime. It’s so cool, so beautiful. And then they decide to just jump in this random hole. Sure. Why not? Wouldn’t you?
JORDAN: Sure.
JOE: If you just fell. Five minutes ago, they fell down a pit. And they’re like, “Let’s do it again.”
JORDAN: (in Wembley voice) Clearly our world has no rules. So let’s do this.
[Joe laughs]
JORDAN: (in normal voice) Safety protocols, engaged. [laughs]
JOE: Yeah, I don’t want to get into like, what are we teaching? What’s the lesson here? But sure. Jump into a random hole. And hey, it turned out it worked because they’re back on track. They might just win this thing. And they’re about to cross the finish line. Mokey runs backward in front of Red, which is impressive. So she could paint Red as she’s crossing the finish line. And Mokey accidentally wins the race. So congratulations, Mokey.
JORDAN: [laughs] Congratulations, Mokey.
JOE: Backwards and in heels.
[Ben laughs]
JORDAN: (laughing) Backwards and in heels. Yeah.
JOE: And she gets this cool looking, again, these props, a cool looking radish award. It’s like a radish inside of a spiral. And she gets to put it on the shelf with all Red’s awards. And Red gets this cool painting of herself as like this running red blur. Love these props. So good.
JORDAN: (in normal voice) It was cool to see Mokey surprise herself. I liked that moment.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: It was just, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, what? What? Oh!” I’ve had those.
JOE: And, she doesn’t do the whole like, “Oh, no, no, no, no, not me.” And Red going, “Oh, what? That’s supposed to be mine.” It’s like everyone’s just like, “Oh, I guess I won. Great. I won.” And Red’s like, “Yeah, you did. Good job, friend.
JORDAN: [laughs] Yeah.
[Ben laughs]
JOE: I know part of that is just like we need to end this episode. It’s like 24 minutes is coming up fast. But, yeah, no, it’s nice that they just kind of like, yeah, we’ll go with it.
JORDAN: Yeah, they support each other.
JOE: They do. Like they’re friends or something.
JORDAN: Well, yeah, and they have perspective. We’re going to have another one of these. It’s fine.
JOE: Yeah, right.
BEN: Yeah, for all we know, they have a Twisty-Turny-Thon every week.
JOE: That’s true. [laughs] The tag at the end of this episode, Wembley and Gobo created a new game called, “How Do You Play It?” And Red asks, “How do you play it?” And I guess that means she wins? [laughs]
JORDAN: [laughs] You know, I still, the last time I watched it, I tried to make sense of it in my mind and something, a voice inside just went, “Jordan, stop.” I said, “Okay, it’s one of those.”
BEN: You know, what it reminded me of? When I was in elementary school, there was like a thing called “the game,” and the only way you would lose the game is if you thought about the game.
JOE: That’s right.
BEN: That was the whole game.
[Jordan laughs]
JOE: That’s the game.
BEN: And you’re like, “Dang it, I just lost the game.”
JOE: Even still, I’m in my forties, and every so often I’ll think about “the game” and it’ll be like, “Shoot, I lost again.” I still do that to myself.
BEN: But this feels like the more positive, fraggly version.
JOE: Yeah.
JORDAN: How do you play?
JOE: The point of the game is you have to get someone to ask you how to play the game. And you did it. And that’s the game. And there’s no follow-up. Thanks for playing.
JORDAN: Choose the form of the destroyer.
JOE: Yes, right. [laughs] So Gobo tells Boober that it’s his turn to play, but Boober says, “Oh, my doctor told me I’m still supposed to rest my shoulder.” And the camera pans back to Dr. Boober, and he says, “Ah, actually told him that he’s good to go.” And the camera pans back to Boober Prime, and he’s like, “Ah, come on.” So now, the Boobers can’t even agree on anything. Adding more questions to is Dr. Boober real? Are there two Boobers? Is it Boober just messing with himself? Is Boober having a Sidebottom moment? We may never know. That’s the end of the episode.
BEN: We may never know. But wouldn’t it be great to know. I love all those options.
JOE: Yes.
JORDAN: I think it was the mushroom spores that were traveling through the air that day.
JOE: Oh, sure. Because of the gusties. They’re blowing the mushroom spores around.
JORDAN: Mmhmm. Yeah. Blowing a lot of them.
BEN: It’s just a hallucination.
JORDAN: Strange hallucinogens in the air.
JOE: Naturally.
BEN: A shared hallucination. Yeah.
JOE: So, guys, I need to ask you a very important question. And after watching this episode, and after having worked on a whole season of Back to the Rock, how do you plan to make this world a little fragflier?
JORDAN: I think continuing to show love, but not the word love, and perhaps not even what the common conception of love is. Because there was so much sacrifice in it, it’s not even funny. And I’d like to continue trying to tap into that. That’s fraggly to me.
JOE: That’s pretty fraggly.
JORDAN: Yeah.
JOE: Ben?
BEN: I would say, to find the joy in everything that happens, because fraggles just have this boundless optimism and positive spin that they put on everything. It’s like, you know, even the most mundane thing can be infused with joy.
JORDAN: Mmm. Love that.
JOE: Wonderful. Well, Jordan Lockhart, Ben Durocher, thank you both so much for being here. Thank you so much for all of your amazing work on Back to the Rock. It truly is a wonderful show, and I’m so grateful that it exists. So thank you for all that you’ve done to make that a possibility.
JORDAN: Our pleasure. Thanks, man.
BEN: Thanks, Joe.
JOE: Of course, of course. And I hope that everyone tunes into our next episode of Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock, coming up next week, and we’ll see you all then.
JORDAN: Bye-bye!
BEN: Bye!
[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]
JOE: Fraggle Talk: the unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast is brought to you by ToughPigs.com.
Produced, written and hosted by Joe Hennes. Fraggle Talk art by Dave Holteen Jr. Fraggle Rock mark and logo, characters and elements are trademarks of the Jim Henson Company. All rights reserved. Transcripts provided by Katilyn Miller. Fraggle Rock theme song, written by Philip Balsam and Dennis Lee, is used with permission.
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[Music ends]
