Transcript: Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – “I’m Pogey”

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Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock – Episode 18: I’m Pogey

[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]

JOE HENNES: Hello and welcome to Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock. The unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast brought to you by ToughPigs.com.

This is the podcast where we cover Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock episode by episode, along with the talented producers, performers, writers, and builders who helped put it all together. I’m your host, Silly Creature Joe Hennes.

[Music ends]

JOE: Today, we are talking about season 2, episode 5, “I’m Pogey,” in which Wembley raises important questions about his identity, orientation, and self-worth, and Pogey is Pogey.

This week, we’ve got three, count ‘em, three fabulous guests on the podcast. Returning from last season, he’s the puppeteer who’s repeated Pogey’s catchphrase so many times, they had to name a whole episode after it, it’s Kanja Chen. Hello, Kanja.

KANJA CHEN: Hey Joe, thanks for having me.

JOE: Thanks for coming back.

[Kanja laughs]

JOE: Next, we have a newcomer to Fraggle Talk. They were a staff writer for Back to the Rock season 1, a staff editor for Back to the Rock season 2, and a writer for this and several other episodes of the series. It’s Charley Feldman. Hello, Charley.

CHARLEY FELDMAN: Hi, thanks for having me.

JOE: Thanks so much for being here.

And last, but certainly not least…He’s Gobo. He’s Sprocket. He’s the Architect Doozer. He’s Barry Blueberry. He’s a writer, a director, producer, puppet captain. He’s the creative supervisor for all of Fraggle Rock, whatever that means. It’s John Tartaglia! Hey, John.

JOHN TARTAGLIA: [laughs] He needs a coffee after that introduction. My gosh.

JOE: I ran out of breath halfway. You have so many titles, so many responsibilities. My goodness.

CHARLEY: You forgot he’s the wind beneath our wings.

JOE: That’s true.

JOHN: Oh, you.

JOE: It’s so true. Hello. I’m so excited to get into this episode with all of you. There’s so much to talk about. But before we do, Charley, this is your first time on Fraggle Talk. Everyone else, when we did season 1, we got their whole backstory. So we’re going to get yours right now. Can you tell us how you came to be working on this show?

CHARLEY: My whole backstory. That’ll take a lot of time. But I was very lucky to have been working for Henson for the animated version of Harriet the Spy. And while I was working there, I just fell in love with–I mean, I was already a Henson Head before this. Labyrinth never, ever, ever left my VHS player as a kid. Many late fees, I’m sure, to Blockbuster. I don’t know why we didn’t buy it but we rented it mostly.

So, Halle and I… Have you had Halle on at all?

JOE: On the first season. We have not yet had her on season 2, but we’re bringing her in. Don’t worry.

CHARLEY: Well, Halle and I, we wrote an episode together of Harriet the Spy. And I think that really cemented my Henson family-ness, because we bonded so much and it was episode about her late father and it was very special to her. And she’s very special to me now.

And she was like, “Have you considered ever working on Fraggle Rock?” And I said, “I have not only considered it, I dared to dream it. So please, may I have the opportunity?” And luckily for me, they kept me on for now two seasons and hopefully more.

JOE: Hopefully more. That’s what we keep saying.

JOHN: I just want to say quickly that Charley, because they are so incredibly modest, is underselling their amazing track record as a writer. And Halle–

CHARLEY: I was just right time, right place.

JOHN: [laughs] I just think we remember Halle saying to me, “Do you know who Charley Feldman is? They are this incredible writer you would get along so well, and they are such a Fraggle in real life too.” And so I just want to give Halle props for that. That Halle is your biggest fan and could not have sung more praises and was completely correct.

CHARLEY: That’s so tight. I’m a Fraggle in that maybe I’m a Boober with a Red rising, is sort of how I fee. A moon in Pogey obviously.

JOHN: [gasps] Fraggle horoscopes. We need Fraggle horoscopes. That’s so good.

JOE: Oooh. That’s happening.

CHARLEY: Article? Free article idea?

JOE: You guys are already making Labyrinth and I think Dark Crystal tarot cards. Why not?

JOHN: Yeah, why not?

JOE: Why not Fraggle too? Hmm.

JOHN: I’ll have to think about that.

JOE: Get the product folks in the line. I also like the idea that you just hire people who seem like Fraggles.

[All laugh]

CHARLEY: It helps.

JOHN: You know what? I mean, you have to have a certain spirit. You have to have a certain energy and a certain heart to write for the show. And I think that Charley brings all of that, and that’s why this episode especially, is so wonderful, is because you know, Charley really found the funny and the heart and the meaning.

The best Fraggle Rock episodes, especially for the classic series and now Back to the Rock are when all three of those things move in alignment with each other.

CHARLEY: I certainly made it personal and picked it from my life and experience, but let me just say it’s our entire writers room that makes an episode. It’s Alex [Cuthbertson] and Matt [Fussfeld] and Johnny on down. Like it’s all of us breaking the story and making it better and making it funnier and making it wonderful.

So this show is extremely collaborative and that’s before we get to Kanja and the incredible team on the production and performance end. So it is definitely not just a my episode.

JOE: Well, yes, but those people aren’t here today.

CHARLEY: Unless you’re Johnny Tartaglia. [laughs]

JOE: Those aren’t here today so you get to take all of the credit.

JOHN: That’s right.

JOE: Yeah, that’s great. So let’s talk about this episode. “I’m Pogey” is easily the most talked about episode from this season of Back to the Rock. Did you have an inkling that that would be true when you were writing it or when you were filming it?

CHARLEY: Johnny, you want to take that?

JOHN: I mean, I think finding this story in the writers room was a super emotional thing, for us, as a group of writers. You get really close to each other. Even though most of the work we did was on Zoom, we were together for 20 weeks writing each season.

And, you know, there were certain…the beautiful part of the Fraggle Rock writers’ room is that, and I think the original series was like this as well, is that so often stories come out of people’s personal lived experience or what they’re observing in the world that they would want to change or something that an advisor says when we have our first beginning of the season meeting with our wonderful advisors.

Of like, what are some issues that are important to families and kids and one of the biggest things that got talked about in the room and from the advisors that you hear from parents is self-identity, healthy self-expression and healthy self-identity and of course we live in this world right now where, you know, people who identify one way or the other certain groups of people are under attack or are feeling unsafe and we just felt like if there’s any kid out there in the world that doesn’t feel okay as who they are, then that is something we have–it’s like our duty to talk about that through this new version of Fraggle Rock.

So, you know, finding that in the writers’ room was super emotional and then I think, you know, we’ll talk about as we go, I don’t want to frontload at all, but we definitely felt like on the set, you know, I was so incredibly blessed to direct this episode and I felt that it was our duty to make a half hour of television that could possibly change lives and save lives.

And I know that sounds super dramatic, but I feel like it’s a subject matter that needs to be discussed. I guess it makes me really, really happy and makes me emotional to know that so many people are touched by this episode because it for everybody on this call and beyond it meant a lot to all of us to make it.

JOE: When Jim Henson conceived of the idea behind Fraggle Rock, he said he wanted to create a TV show to end war and obviously we still have war. I mean, I hate to say he was unsuccessful in that regard. But when I think about, you know, the idea of what you all creating, contributing to this idea of bringing peace to the world, this is exactly the kind of episode I think about.

When you say that you were saving lives by creating this sense of understanding. That’s so much in the heart, not just the heart of what Jim Henson wanted, which is what we all kind of strive for, but at the heart of what Fraggle Rock is and should be and to be doing it in such an entertaining way.

This, I mean, I don’t think I’m speaking out of turn for anyone who’s listening to this, but I think we all kind of agree this is easily the best episode of the season. Like it’s just so powerful for that reason.

[John gasps]

CHARLEY: That’s so kind.

JOE: Yeah.

CHARLEY: I mean, we talk about, you can get literal about what war means, but certainly I think sometimes we can be at war with ourselves and want peace to our own minds and hearts and spirits.

JOHN: Yeah.

CHARLEY: Which is really hard to do sometimes in the world we live in. And it’s an honor to be taking…A lot of lines were extremely personal from my own life. Things said to me. Things I have thought. I recognize that there’s some viewers out there who wish we weren’t so—Er Wembley wasn’t so mean to himself. And I agree. I think people in my life have said that about me, (laughing) that I should be less mean to myself. And I wish I was less mean to myself.

(in normal voice) But it’s, I don’t know, it’s tough sometimes being a writer for Fraggle Rock only in that we don’t want to be mean to our characters and we also don’t, there’s not a lot of like villains. There’s no one who’s just is especially like villainous or coming against us. So this was tricky in that way to be like, well, sometimes we’re our own worst enemies, but we’re not bad people we’re just trying to figure out our own stuff out. And with something like identity, be it gender identity or expression of any kind, you’re just always in a process of finding yourself. What’s more playful and Fraggley than that is just taking who you are and figuring it out in a dance and a playful way.

JOHN: And this also came, you know, because there’s all of that. Everything Charley just said is right and there was also this lovely desire to take a character like Pogey who in the first season was a fantastic, funny. Like, my lord, if you needed a laugh, like you had Pogey run through and say something.

And first of all, Kanja is one of the most incredible performers I have ever worked with because he just throws his heart and his soul into everything he does on that set and is like the greatest puppet-find in the Henson history because he’s so incredibly good.

And you know, but we had so much fun writing for Pogey in the first season, you know, with all those, especially with poor Red, it’s great to have this Pogey-Red back and forth, that she loves him, but you know, Pogey drives Red crazy.

But we were like we want them to have more. You know, to get to know Pogey more and to realize, because I think Jim did this with so many of his characters, right? Where like this seemingly like the monster who you think is just a monster ends up being this incredibly emotional creature. Or, you know, the one word non-verbal character ends up being the biggest thinker and the deepest, has the deepest meaning.

So we thought it’d be beautiful to have Pogey who we did use primarily for just wonderful, fraggley fun in the first season to have this other side and explain why Pogey says I am Pogey. And explain why they have this incredible confidence. I think it was important to show… it is such a Fraggle message. But like, you know, people or fraggles aren’t always just how you perceive them.

JOE: The idea of what you just described of Pogey being so confident and that’s kind of where it comes from. First of all, it fits so well and I would be shocked if this wasn’t a part of Pogey’s character from season one. But I have to assume it kind of came up with breaking the story here for season two.

Kanja was this anything that you kind of had an inkling of from season one? And, with the things that we learn about Pogey in this episode, when were you brought into the fold to be a part of that character development?

KANJA: Yeah, so first part of your question, season one, no. I mean, I think season one really was discovering who Pogey was. And that’s, I mean, I think that that’s just, it’s such a great word “discovery” because I really do believe that Pogey exists and has always existed and it was really a group effort to really find out who Pogey was.

I remember, I’ll just give a little story, when I was just trying to figure out who Pogey was in season one, I remember I was sitting down and just doing these little one-worders. I was just like, (in voice of Pogey) Yep.

[Charley and John laugh]

KANJA: (in normal voice) You know, just thinking one little thing. And Johnny you turned to me and you were kind of like, (in voice of Pogey) Okay! (in normal voice) And I was like, yep, that’s exactly, yes, like we both know who Pogey is right now. Like we are finding who Pogey is or was.

And in terms of second season, like I just I remember Matt kind of coming up to me and going at the beginning of the season, “We are so excited about this season. We’ve got some great big plans.” But Matt didn’t tell me anything other than that just like we’ve got some exciting stuff.

And I think I the writers, I don’t know I mean, I’m just assuming from the conversations I’ve had with different writers, they all knew and they really wanted to tell me, but they were sworn to secrecy because no one broke. Like no one broke and no one told me.

[John laughs]

KANJA: I didn’t know until I got the script until they actually handed me the script.

CHARLEY: We knew you could handle it.

KANJA: Yeah, it was great. I mean, I loved it. I loved all of it. And you know, when I read it, I was like, yeah, yeah, the writers absolutely know Pogey. That’s one of the reasons why you know, I really look at being offered or being given the opportunity to perform Pogey is a true gift because Pogey is, like I said, I don’t just say Pogey’s not my character just like this episode’s not any one of our episode.

Pogey is a character that everyone can connect with and everyone knows Pogey really well. Like I read people’s comments all the time. I’m like, “Yep, you know Pogey. Yep, you’ve got Pogey.”

And that really shined through in season two for me when I started reading a lot of the scripts and I was like, yes, that’s great. For my own sense of character, season one, one of the things I had to do is try to create my like my own backstories and my own thinking. And I remember I had said to, I think it was probably Jordan Lockhart who we were just fooling around and I was like, “I totally feel like Pogey would run through, knock over all of the radishes that Wembley’s carrying as Wembley’s counting them, and I just yell out (in voice of Pogey) 374 (in normal voice) and just keep running.” And it’s not until the end of the episode that you’ll actually find out that’s exactly how many radishes were there.

But that was just, again, it was just something that I was like, yeah, I think that that fits within the spirit of who Pogey is. And then leave it to this writers’ room and these writers to deliver script after script all the way throughout the entire season, but you know, especially with “I’m Pogey” episode and I’m just like, “They’ve got Pogey. They’ve absolutely got Pogey. Yep, it’s been fantastic. I’m so happy.

[John laughs]

JOE: Great.

CHARLEY: Pogey is so fun to write for because Pogey is sort of like the noble fool archetype, but also their very own thing, but like the noble fool is wiser than all of us and also an absolute idiot. Sometimes.

JOHN: Yeah.

CHARLEY: And for a world that is very silly, having an even more foolish character, I think, is kind of hard to do. But it’s Kanja’s performance is certainly where we’ve found them in the stories.

JOE: Yeah, that’s an interesting concept, kind of being the town idiot in a town of idiots. You really kind of have to push that a little bit. [laughs]

JOHN: Yeah, well, I remember David Goelz saying when we were developing Back to the Rock the first season, we were going through all the different characters, all the different additions and things like that. We were talking about who Pogey was and that Pogey was, you know, Pogey throws their heart 100% into it, no matter what it is, and can come across a bit simple and in the best possible way.

And Dave was just laughing hilariously and he’s like, “We need that.” He’s like, “We need that like extra character that like really has that kind of a personality.” And I think the moment for some reason. I don’t know why because it was one line, but I just remember this moment from the first season of shooting that I was like, “Oh gosh, that character. Pogey is so part of the canon now.” Was during “Night of the Lights.” Where Pogey runs through covered in glow grapes and just is like, “Yeah!” And you’re just like, you know exactly who that character is. You’re like, Pogey absolutely is that kid who goes 150 percent.

While everyone else is like, skirting a hundred, Pogey’s at a hundred and fifty. And is totally okay with it. I think that that just solidified who they are and they’re just so committed to who they are. They have no apologies to make who they are.

JOE: There were two things after season one ended that a lot of us, mostly me, were saying, this is what I really want out of season two. Both of them, I will tease, both of them are in this episode. But the first one was, I want a Pogey-centric episode and I’m very happy that you delivered on that.

And the second one we will get to as we discuss this episode, which, what a great segue that was that I accidentally fell backwards into.

JOHN: Hey!

JOE: Let’s talk about this episode. “I’m Pogey” opens on Doc and Sprocket’s workshop. Docket… Excuse me, Sprocket. I’ve never said Docket before, but I feel like that comes up a lot for you guys.

[John laughs]

JOE: Docket.

CHARLEY: A couple name?

JOE: That’s a couple name. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you can have that one, Johnny, if you want to throw that into season three.

JOHN: Docket. I’m making t-shirts.

JOE: Great. Sprocket is watching a video of young Doc singing in a talent show. I was curious. I paused it on the talent show video. He’s watching on a website called koolclips.com. Cool with a K. I went to koolclips.com, someone else owns. There’s nothing there.

JOHN: Oh god. Thank god.

JOE: There’s nothing there, but it is not available to purchase.

JOHN: Okay.

JOE: I’m sorry to say. So if you want to see this video, you’ll have to go to some other website. There are all these commenters on the side and they’re all like people’s names. You’re nodding. Okay, so that means these are real people.

JOHN: There are tons of easter eggs in there and I don’t recall them specifically right now, but I remember when we were creating them. I think one of them, if I’m remembering correctly, is Philip Henry Wu or Phillip Wu.

JOE: Yes, I wrote them all down. You’ve got PhilipHenryWu16.

JOHN: Oh you did? Oh good.

JOE: Yes.

CHARLEY: So cool.

JOHN: So Phillip was mine and Halle’s producing assistant on this series and for the second season. And he is a lifesaver and so that was one fun thing. And who are the others?

JOE: Okay, I’m going to give you all of them you you’re going to tell me who these people are. DylanDogg1224.

JOHN: DylanDogg is probably I think Dylan [Zack] who was part of our camera team. I’m going to guess.

JOE: All right. NateyNuNu

JOHN: [laughs] I have no idea who that is.

JOE: [laughs] HarrietMC555.

JOHN: (whispering) HarrietMC…

JOE: No? Maybe they don’t all have–

JOHN: (in normal voice) I think some of these must be made up. Yeah.

CHARLEY: Wait. Wait. Wait. Is that Alex’s daughter Harriet? Alex has a daughter named Harriet. Maybe it’s for Harriet.

JOHN: Oh, maybe so.

JOE: Yeah. IraWindsorSquare.

CHARLEY: That’s also Alex’s kid. Alex, you cutiepie.

JOE: [laughs] ChristinaandRob5714. It’s gotta be like more kids. More people’s kids.

JOHN: Yeah. I think it was an opportunity to like to throw loving people’s names in there.

JOE: Totally. Last one. Madisonlovestoswim. [laughs]

JOHN: [laughs] Oh. Oh.

CHARLEY: Oh is that Madison? [laughs]

JOHN: It’s Madison. Okay. That’s a quick funny story. So I was standing…Oh my God. Charley’s going to die. Okay. This is an insider story.

I had gone to this resort for a weekend away. It’s like a spa resort kind of place. And [laughs] I was explaining to the writers’ room that there was this mother there. And she had this giant hat. I remember that SNL skit about giant hats? She had one of those giant hats on. And her daughter was in the pool. And her name was Madison. And all this woman would say was, (in voice of posh person) “Madison. Madison. You gotta get out of the pool. Madison. Madison, we gotta go. You want chicken fingers? Madison. Madison.”

And I was obsessed with how she said Madison as two-syllables. “Madson” and it was just drama that I had the privilege of seeing and watching. And so I came back to the writers’ room and talked about it. And so it became a running gag in the writers’ room for all twenty weeks where basically like every now and then, Matt Fussfeld or Alex Cuthbertson would be like, (in voice of posh person) “Madison. Madison, you wanna get lunch? Madison.”

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: (in normal voice) So that’s exactly what that is.

JOE: Wow.

JOHN: I am ashamed that I did not pick up on that until now.

JOE: I was hoping it would be a reference to the movie Splash. But your story was much better.

CHARLEY: It’s not not…So this is a podcast. It’s not a visual medium. But I did leave for a moment because we got mugs to commemorate it. And it literally says Madison on the back. But I don’t know where my mug is.

JOHN: Yes. Oh.

JOE: Oh, that’s funny.

CHARLEY: Sorry, guys. You can’t see it anyway because it’s a podcast.

JOE: Just hold up. Hold up. Wow, look at that beautiful mug that you’re holding up right now. What, you have two of them. Wow. Amazing.

JOHN: (in voice of posh person) Madison, you want a mug? Madison, you wanna go on Toughpigs? Madison, you wanna talk to Joe Hennes?

[Joe laughs] 

JOHN: (in normal voice) That’s the story.

JOE: Incredible. Thank you for sharing that. That non-Fraggle related story.

CHARLEY: Thanks for the deep dive.

JOHN: I’m so happy you took the time to find that out.

JOE: [laughs] Anyway, Sprocket’s watching this video. Doc is not having it. That’s kind of the end of that story. All right, let’s move on. Wembley is helping Mokey pick out hats for Lanford. Wembley’s an expert because he helps Gobo pick out his hats. A little hat-lore for a Gobo.

JOHN: Yeah, always trying to put that in here.

JOE: Why does the Lanford need a hat?

JOHN: Oh, because Mokey thinks so.

[crosstalk]

JOE: That’s a good reason. I was just thinking they’re underground. It’s not like he’s gotta keep keep the sun out of his eyes.He doesn’t even have eyes.

JOHN: You know, we were still trying to set up the idea that even after they resolved it in episode three, that like Mokey is still a little too obsessed with Lanford.

JOE: She’s still a mom. Yeah, right.

JOHN: Like it’s a line in To Wong Foo. Like it’s a wear something hat day. So it feels like Mokey would absolutely be like, “Lanford, it’s Thursday. We need a hat today.” I think that’s just where Mokey’s brain goes.

JOE: Yeah.

CHARLEY: For anyone who’s ever had a pet, you want to accessorize the pet.

JOE: Yeah.

CHARLEY: It’s just fun to see them in different hats and outfits. So yeah, it’s just kind of that.

JOE: All right.

CHARLEY: And they’re all playing. They’re all playing with identity anyway and presentation. So Lanford gets to play with Lanford’s presentation as well.

JOHN: There you go.

JOE: Yes, good. Approved. Wembley finds Mokey’s old robe. And it’s the robe from the original Fraggle Rock series.

JOHN: The literal one.

JOE: Mokey, he asks her why she would ever change. She said, “Oh, something inside me said it was time for change. New outfit and new hair do.” You’re really driving home, like this is the same Mokey, but she has made some fashion changes.

JOHN: Well, you know…

JOE: I mean, soft new. Soft new. Yeah.

JOHN: Soft new. We pay attention to the Fraggle discourse that’s out there. And I know that there was a lot of fans who were like, “Why did they change Mokey?” And you know, we knew that was going to happen. And we had a lot of really considerate and careful conversations about that before we did it.

But, you know, the thing that the people ask that I’m always like, I think maybe everyone doesn’t know is it is literally the same patterned puppet. It’s the same. Rollie Krewson approved the patterns who, of course, built on the original series. And it is literally the 1982 patterns for Mokey. It’s just different hair and different outfit, but the same eyes and fleece.

So, you know, and I think we just wanted a reason to explain it. It just felt so right for this episode and we thought that the fans would get a kick out of, you know, acknowledging the fact that she used to wear this robe and now she doesn’t.

JOE: Yeah, we absolutely do appreciate it. Yeah, and, you know, it does feel like it’s a nod for us. We like those kinds of Easter eggs. I’m just like, “Wink wink. It’s real if you want it to be. Like the whole original series happened, if you wanted it to happen.”

JOHN: Yeah, we were super– shooting that hat– we were super–I remember Jordan Lockhart, who is our brilliant Wembley, when we were shooting that moment, he was like, “Oh, fans are going to lose their minds.”

And I was like, “Yeah, they are. It’s going to be awesome.” [laughs]

JOE: Yeah, yeah, we thank you. We thank you for that.

CHARLEY: It gives a nice in-world reason for why we’re talking about this today.

JOHN: Exactly.

CHARLEY: We’re talking about this because every one of these characters has the ability to explore how they are in this world, how they present, how they play. So, this just, it worked out on all levels.

JOE: Absolutely, yeah. Red rushes in. She tells them, “Stop what you’re doing. We’re doing a fraggle stack.” We’re stacking fraggles.

CHARLEY: Oh, I was going to say.

JOE: Yeah, jump in.

CHARLEY: It’s also sort of that thing where you, I don’t think we ever are clear about who’s older than who. Age sort of doesn’t really matter here. But it is sort of that experience that I think a lot of people, regardless of how you may identify, where you have an older sibling and you kind of want to dress how they dress.

JOHN: Yes.

CHARLEY: So, I think this is the first inkling of Wembley seeing, like, I remember this robe. This robe exemplified you in this way. What would it look like on me? How would that be for me? So, it’s sort of that wearing your mom’s heels or dad’s tie. But we don’t have parents here. So, we have elderish, sibling-ish with Mokey.

JOE: Yeah, I’m glad to hear you say that because there was a part of me that wondered, obviously, Wembley is not trying to be Mokey or to be more like Mokey.

CHARLEY: No.

JOHN: Right.

JOE: Like, that’s, there’s an old episode from the original series where Red tries to do that. That’s not the story you’re telling here. So, there is the question of, so why, like, he takes Mokey’s robe. It looks like he takes Mokey’s necklace. He’s using what he thinks is Mokey’s hair goop. We’ll get to that in a minute. Like, there’s definitely a connection to Mokey, but that’s not really part of the story we’re telling here.

JOHN: Yeah, and Wembley is such a…You know, we always talk about what are the inner relationships of the characters and Wembley has such an appreciation for Mokey. And I think is fascinated by her ability to just own herself and who she is. I mean, Mokey never questions whether or not she should fall into a trance in the middle of a conversation. She just does it.

So, you know, I think that he really looks up to her, but also I think Wembley is the one character that, you know, is so innocent. Wembley’s heart is so pure and so innocent. I mean, that’s what I love about that character, love about Wembley is that he just really would walk to the ends of the earth if you told him to for somebody. That he would not have the wherewithal to have an understanding of why this would be weird or wrong.

You know, the only time that even kind of occurs to him is when he makes a mistake which we’re getting to, about how Red reacts. He misunderstands it. That’s the first time he even. He just thought it was a wonderful thing to do. And why couldn’t I wear this robe and that might be cool if I express myself that way.

He is so innocent in his want. And I think that’s why we chose him to be the main focus of the story for that reason.

JOE: Yeah, absolutely.

KANJA: And can I just say like, I really connected with that moment with Wembley because I was that four-year-old kid who was raised by like a really hippie mom. I mean, extremely hippie mom who had communal clothing bins in the daycare that I grew up in. But she showed me this green, this little green dress that she grew up in that meant so much to her. And it was one of my favorite outfits to wear when I was little because it was connected to someone I absolutely loved.

And I believe Johnny has seen it. So there’s a picture I have of me at probably three in my mom’s little green dress and it was one of, and I also had a red ribbon in my hair as well.

And it was, you know, to me, it was a symbol of connecting with my mom when she was little. So I couldn’t play with my mom when she was little, but was connecting to her. And so I really think that at least the way I interpret it as well. It’s the same, that same feeling that we have when we’re young and we don’t see all those delineated lines of what we can and cannot do.

We’re really looking at it as this is a connection to this person who I really care about.

JOHN: That’s exactly right.

CHARLEY: Beautiful.

JOHN: And you know, we talked about this in the writers room too about like how the only moment a little boy might think that it’s quote unquote wrong to play with girls’ stuff or the only moment a little girl would be told it’s wrong to dress up in quote unquote boy stuff. The only time that actually hits them is when a friend or a family member or a parent or adult calls it out and says something about it.

But they, you know, we don’t naturally as creatures have that awareness of girls or boys. This is right or wrong. So, you know, I remember putting on my mom’s heels and wearing my mom’s robe. And the only inclination I had that it was quote unquote wrong was when, you know, someone older said like, “What are you doing in that?”

That’s the first time it hits you. So that was the moment we were trying to capture with Wembley of that innocence of like, “Hi everyone. I’m here in this thing that I think I like to wear. And this feels good.” And then it’s thinking that people are chastising him for it.

CHARLEY: I mean, what’s sillier than gendering clothes? Like not in a linguistic sense. I’m sorry Latin languages that gender every object. But like actually like… I’m really glad we have an opportunity to have Mokey, her robe because robe… You know, dress you might feel like this is a gendered item even though I don’t think it should be. But a robe is not a, especially not a very gendered item.

JOHN: Everyone wears robes. [laughs]

CHARLEY: Yeah. But it’s different enough for Wembley.

JOE: I own a robe that, no joke, looks exactly like that gray robe with the same like knit pattern that’s kind of missing a few loops or whatever. And I love it because it’s just really comfortable. It’s my favorite robe. I wear it all the time.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: I guess it’s more of a cardigan, but still I mean like yeah, that’s not gendered. It’s just a gray piece of fabric.

JOHN: Yeah. Exactly.

JOE: It’s so not gendered. It’s like aggressively not gendered.

CHARLEY: But it’s different from Wembley. All of our characters mostly wear the same thing every day. So it’s just so takes Wembley out of their pattern in a way that really jolts everybody. In a way that never had before that day.

JOE: And this is a larger conversation, but like Fraggle Rock historically has kind of been proactive in being non-gendered. You know, you’ve got Red Fraggle who is the athletic one and you’ve got Boober who loves to do laundry. The only times it really comes up like once in a while with Travelling Matt. Like often with the gorgs because they’ve got this whole patriarchy/matriarchy thing going on.

But like for the most part, it just doesn’t come up and it seems like that may have actually been a bit of a challenge for you, Charley, because you’re writing something where you’ve got a character who identifies as male historically, who’s starting to ask these questions, but what is male and what is female in the Fraggle Rock world?

Well, I mean, I’m making that assumption. Is that true that that was difficult for you to kind of wrap your brain around when writing this?

CHARLEY: I think for all of us, this was difficult because, I mean, me coming from the perspective of a non-binary person, like I certainly do not represent all non-binary people, but I do use they/them pronouns because that establishes a little, at least again linguistically, that I see myself in such a way. And I would like you to honor that.

And the only thing I feel with our Fraggle’s is their pronouns. We use she/her for Red and Mokey. And we use he/him for Wembley and Gobo. But other than that, it’s not really like a strict to our world concept of that.

So when you first thought about maybe talking about, and again, I don’t want to belabor that this is only about gender. It’s also about identity. For those, you can hear my non-binary story and trans story here, but also identity and presentation and finding yourself in general.

But if we are to talk about gender here a little bit, it is something that we thought about first season. So much so that we almost, and this is getting a little ahead of myself, this is where Boxing Day first began was for my previous episode that I wrote for “Flight of the Flutterflies” because we were talking about holidays in that episodes. So we thought about a holiday called Boxing Day that would be our only talk about gender identity or expression.

So that got removed from that episode and made a whole lot of sense here to sort of balance this out for all of our character areas. And yeah, it’s just, it is a silly concept in our world too frankly, but it’s also especially for those who are on the binary end of things, it’s comforting, because it feels like, it’s something you can hold close to your heart and feel like “This is me.” And I feel like that for anything in between and outside entirely. As soon as you’re like, “Oh, that’s me.” There’s a… you get a Pogey. You get someone who wants to yell it from the rooftops.

JOHN: Yeah.

CHARLEY: And I’ve gone so, I’m Captain Tangent. I really wish you’d [laughs]

JOE: That’s okay. This is what we’re tangenting for is for these kinds of conversations.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: Well, and we should just say really quickly that we, sorry. I was going to say just as what Charley said, that we also had a lot of conversations about how in the original series even, they never obviously talked about gender identity in a way that you could find in this episode.

But they did do episodes where it was like, you know, Gobo was challenging Red from a male-female perspective or there was Red’s club. There were moments where like they touched on it.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: But they also very specifically and we definitely have followed this to a T is, you know, there was that infamous episode that got killed, I think by Karen and Kathy, about one of them having a crush on a male Fraggle.

And so we very purposely avoid that sort of thing and, you know, the closest to that would be Storyteller having her, you know, [laughs] her moments about Travelling Matt. That’s probably the closest we get to that sort of affinity for gender and for crushes and for, you know, that sort of thing.

But the Fraggles  just, you know, they’re their own persons. And so, you know, when this sort of story came up, it was like, this is the way we can do a gender identity story, but not necessarily call it that and not ever name it that. You never hear, Wembley never questions whether or not he’s non-binary or male or female or trans or anything. It’s more just about how he is expressing himself and the hope is that any kid, no matter what they’re going through, whether it’s a gender identity, whether it’s gay or straight or anything that they’re going through where they don’t feel like or they feel that if they do something that will show themselves in a different way and people may judge it, you know, that’s where we were hoping that people would relate to.

So I think Charley did a brilliant job in finding this really universal way in with Wembley’s story.

CHARLEY: Anyone who feels like an outsider, I hope really sees themselves.

JOHN: Exactly.

CHARLEY: Whether it’s perceived, because certainly Fraggles aren’t trying to ostracize Wembley, it does have to get a little more internal for him. But yeah, the point is like sometimes we find ourselves in any part of our lives whether we’re kids or adults, but we’re like, I don’t want to be judged for something that I love or something that I’m exploring too soon. Like if I say this too soon and I haven’t figured it out for myself, like that will explode everything. My relationships, my sense of like equanimity.

Like it’s really tough to explore yourself in this world and you just hope for Fraggle friends who are like, “Wherever you end up, we love you.”

[John laughs]

JOE: You’re also describing, I mean, look, I identify as a straight male and I felt so much of what Wembley felt because I also come from like this fandom world where like I’ve been obsessed with things, like Muppets, for, you know, I had parts of my life where like people didn’t really get that. And just like Wembley in this episode, you gotta find the people who do get it and tell you it’s okay for you to be who you are.

And for you to kind of let go of that fear of wondering like, “Oh, are they going to like me still? Are they not going to get the things that you know, I’ve been hiding this part of me. Are they not going to get it when I start to like really, let it fly like a flag?” And, you know, it’s not, it doesn’t hold the same weight in a lot of ways as some of the topics that we’re talking about today, but like it’s still I think a lot of people can see that truth in their own experiences like I do.

CHARLEY: I hope so. I mean, certainly I hope we never legislate against fandoms. [laughs]

[Joe and John laugh]

JOE: Oh, can you imagine? Oh, we’re all moving to Canada after that.

JOHN: Yeah, seriously.

JOE: All right, so anyway, let’s get back to this episode. I’m sure this stuff is going to come back into conversation several times throughout this podcast.

But in the Great Hall, we’re doing a Fraggle Stack. The Fraggles are basically doing a human pyramid but with Fraggles. Pogey is there at the top. Kanja, can you tell us, where are you? Are you on a ladder or something?

[John laughs]

KANJA: Yeah. It was quite the challenge to try to make sure that this Fraggle Stack worked on a basic level, just like a puppeteer perspective, but also like performance. And I remember kind of like doing the math and I was like looking and I was like, okay, what’s so we are physical puppeteers who take up space. And so we’ve got a line of puppeteers in the bottom row and they’re going to take up the space right behind those puppets. And then the next row on top of them is going to take another whole human. Now we’re adding to the depth of this stack.

And I think we had another row which had more. So now we’re three humans deep and they’re like, “And Kanja, you got to be on the top.” So I was like, “Oh. Oh.” And so yeah, it was actually a lot of teamwork figuring it all out. The ladder option was not an option just for safety. We made sure like, nope. So they ended up building a wonderfully stable, safe platform.

And the amazing wrangling crew cut a hole in the back of Pogey’s head so I could puppeteer through the back of Pogey’s head. So it was easy to access just leaning forward and I was like harnessed and I had a railing there that was keeping me from plunging anywhere.

So I leaned forward and it was fantastic. I actually remember watching it and seeing the take and I went, “Damn, that looked good.” And I did not know how they were going to be able to do it and it looked good. It’s actually something I pause and rewind quite a lot when I’m watching it. I go, “Wow, they pulled it off.”

So yeah, so that’s the technical piece, but you know, it’s at the end of the day. It was just a fraggle stack and it looked amazing.

JOHN: I will just say that I, you know, part of your job as a director on anything is to act like, you know, to be confident in your ideas. And I was a big proponent of the fraggle stack idea, cause I thought it was a fun idea. And then, you know, the night before, every night before…Every day when we shoot the show, the night before we have what’s called a walkthrough where we wrapped what we were shooting that day and then the crew and the talent and the producers stay afterwards and do a walkthrough where we kind of walk through what we’re going to shoot, sometimes two days before but usually one day before, and talk about what it’s going to be.

And we got to the fraggle stack and there was a lot of like, “So Johnny, how is this going to work?” And I was in my brain, I was like, “No, okay, we’re going to cut holes for the bottom fraggles so they’re under something and inside of something. The second row and blah, blah, blah.

And what I give credit to, I’m so glad we get a moment to say this, our crew in Calgary is the greatest crew I have ever worked with in my entire television career. I really mean that because they never once were like, “Mm, can’t do that.” It was like, “Here’s how we’ll do it. Let’s figure it out.”

So even on the day when we tried the Fraggle stack one way and it wasn’t quite exactly what we wanted it to be. You know, time is money, right? And like we only have a certain amount of time to shoot these shows. And going down for a half hour to figure something out is devastating.

These guys were down for 20 minutes maybe, come up with a new truss system, a new this. And they jumped in. They did it and they were so willing. And that’s why, to Kanja’s point, it looks so great is the effort that they made, the puppeteers made, the wranglers made. And I just stood there was like, (in sing-song voice) “Thank you, Jesus, for making my idea work because I wasn’t 100% sure it what would.”

[John and Joe laugh]

JOHN: (in normal voice) I couldn’t let anyone know that in my brain I was going, “Did I say we could do something we can’t do?” But it really does…I’m really, I’m also very happy with how it ended up.

JOE: Fantastic. The Storyteller is keeping time because they’re trying to break a record. And she’s like, hang on, let me put my hourglass glasses on. And she bends down, comes back up with [laughs] glasses that look like horizontal hourglasses that is neither functional as an hourglass or as glasses, which is hysterical.

JOHN: Makes no sense.

JOE: I love it.

JOHN: Makes no sense at all.

JOE: I love the Storyteller. Can we get a Storyteller episode in season three, please?

JOHN: Oh, believe me.

JOE: Is that too much? Is that chaotic?

JOHN: No, that’s on my wish too. And you know, it’s funny because I think that Pogey, which I said before about Kanja, on how we could depend on Kanja to make anything work with Pogey, my god, if you need a funny line too, call in Donna Kimballl to do the Storyteller. Because she just, when she found that version of the character, I was like, I want her to read me… like I want the Storyteller to have like a series on the Calm app and just like read stories to make me fall… because I think I’d be so entertained. I don’t think I’d fall asleep. I just love that voice so much.

JOE: Storyteller podcast. It’s right there.

CHARLEY: Writing for Donna is so fun, but Donna also ad libs incredibly. So like you just let her talk and let her keep going on set.

JOHN: So true.

CHARLEY: Which is so fun to watch.

JOHN: So true.

JOE: She’s amazing. So yeah, so Wembley comes in as we discussed. He comes in with his new outfit, with the robe, the necklace. His hair’s up in a ponytail and the fraggle stack falls because they’re all a little surprised to see him.

Red gets upset about it. Wembley totally misinterprets the situation, thinking that she’s upset with him and he runs off. That poor little guy. Like doesn’t your heart just break for him?

JOHN: Absolutely. And you know, I have to say, Jordan Lockhart. Talk about somebody who just is all heart and you know, the level of care he put into this episode. He cared so deeply about every moment of it and getting it right and telling the story and exploring this side of Wembley.

And I just, you know, from a directing point of view, it was just thrilling to see him find these things and to be willing to go there. And I think that this moment to me, to what you’re talking about, is such a heartbreaking moment. When he thinks that he’s being judged for something like that. And the way he touches his little head and is like, oh my gosh. It’s just beautiful. So beautiful.

JOE: Yep. Absolutely. Gobo enters with his latest postcard from Traveling Matt. The Storyteller is very excited. She says, “His words are poems. His mustache is a song.”

[John and Kanja laugh]

JOHN: Yep. Charley Feldman.

JOE: Did you write that?

CHARLEY: Is she wrong? Is she wrong?

JOE: She’s not wrong.

[All laugh]

JOE: And again, God, I love the Storyteller. I couldn’t tell if that was one of those, was it in the script or was that Donna being Donna? And that’s a testament to both of you.

CHARLEY: I don’t know. I never wanted to be that writer who’s just like, “Oh, that’s one of mine.” I have no idea.

JOHN: That was in the script. I remember. And I thought it was a genius line, Charley.

JOE: Alright, well, you’re taking credit for it either way. Or we’re giving you credit. We’re thrusting credit upon you.

So Traveling Matt has a hole in his boot. So he says, he knew exactly where to go. Not the shoe store. He went to a toy store. The aisles are separated between stereotypically boys’ toys and girl toys. So he re-arranges the shelves. And he chooses a pair of pink glittery shoes for himself. And mails his old boots back to Fraggle Rock. And they smell like old boots.

JOHN: [laughs] Old boots.

JOE: Exactly. Gobo takes them to another cave far, far away from everyone else. But he’ll be gone long enough for the Fraggles to justify throwing him a welcome home party. And I love that the Fraggles are like, “Oh, what a great opportunity for a party.” Like, as if they needed a real opportunity.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Like, they could have just thrown a party. But it’s like, oh, it’s a reason for a party.

JOHN: Any reason.

JOE: I like that idea. 

[crosstalk]

CHARLEY: I think we see the Fraggles as like, always kind of having party.

JOE: Yeah, exactly.

CHARLEY: Always having reasons to celebrate. Which I think everyone out there should find that in their lives somehow. You deserve your little celebrations for the silliest, quote unquote, inconsequential things. Like missing your friends for maybe 15 minutes.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Yeah. Throw a party. Why not? Oh, now I want to go to a party. That sounds like fun. All right. Maybe we’ll have a “finishing this podcast” party at the end.

CHARLEY: Yay!

JOHN: There you go.

JOE: With the five of us. Wembley has changed out of his clothes, but his hair will not go back to normal. Turns out he didn’t use Mokey’s hair goo. He used Lanford’s pot glue to fix his broken pot.

JOHN: Yeah.

CHARLEY: Here’s some behind the scenes. This was sad to cut at the time, but we were sort of tracking Lanford having sort of a growth spurt. So Lanford was like eating things all throughout. Eating the hat. Eating decorations because we needed Lanford to be bigger than the pot for episodes that were coming later. So this is like the beginning of that growth spurt, but it just, we had to focus it.

JOHN: Yeah. We cut a lot of that out. That’s right.

CHARLEY: Yeah. Had to be.

JOE: Oh, we’re missing out on a little bit of Lanford’s…

CHARLEY: Lanford-lore.

JOE: Season-long story arc here.

JOHN: That’s right.

JOE: He’s slightly larger. The only thing that…It turns out the only thing that’ll get the hair goo out…Excuse me, the glue goo out of Wembley’s hair is water from Sweet Water Creek.

JOHN: Yaaay!

JOE: So Wembley runs off so he can get it done before Gobo’s party.

JOHN: Sweet Water Creek was a bit I loved the idea of sweet water when I was a kid from the original series. I was like, the way that they made it look with the pink and I was like, that looks so good. And I was like wanting to drink it so badly in that one episode in the classic series when they all lean forward and then Gobo’s like, “No, don’t drink it.”

So it was just, when we were in the room, that’s one moment I was like, Sweet water!” Like psychotic about it. I was like, “We have to use sweet water!” Cause I was excited about bringing sweet water back.

JOE: What do you think sweet water tastes like? Because it looks delicious.

CHARLEY: I hope it’s bitter. I hope it’s a nice subversion. [laughs]

JOE: [laughs] Like black coffee.

CHARLEY: Yeah.

JOHN: I thought it was like strawberry or something. I mean, I know that we brought strawberries into this season.

JOE: Like fruity.

JOHN: Yeah, like a berryish yummy sugary deliciousness.

JOE: Oh, that sounds better. I was just thinking, like again, like just thinking of when I would watch the old episode. It’s just like sugar water. And I would go, yeah, cause it’s sweet water. They would go, that sounds awful.

JOHN: Yeah, yeah.

JOE: Sugar in the water?

[All laugh]

JOHN: Needs some fruit flavoring.

CHARLEY: Not if you’re a humming bird.

JOE: Oh, that’s true.

JOHN: That’s true.

JOE: I’m not. So it still sounds awful. But like, La Croix. It sounds like they’re drinking La Croix. Right.

JOHN: Yes. Yes.

JOE: Yeah. Okay.

JOHN: But the good flavors.

JOE: Exactly. Yes.

CHARLEY: Pamplemousse.

JOE: Yes, the pamplemousse. It is Junior Gorg’s birthday. Happy birthday, Junior Gorg. I actually kind of wish that we were doing like a whole episode just about Junior Gorg’s birthday. I feel like it’s a big deal. Like he’s turning 500.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: A nice round number. And he’s still a little baby boy, by the way. Cause he’s only five hundred.

JOHN: He is.

JOE: Yeah.

CHARLEY: Always a baby boy.

JOHN: He has thousands of years to go.

JOE: Exactly. So it turns out the 500th birthday for Gorgs is Boxing Day, which is also the name of a real holiday.

JOHN: Yeah. Which was the beginning of…That was the beginning of the conversation. Like Charley was saying, during the first season was like we need a holiday, how funny they would it be to take actual Boxing Day, but in the Fraggle Rock metaphor world it’s not that.

JOE: Right, it’s actually about boxes. Yeah. Yeah, Totally.

JOHN: Right.

CHARLEY: That was my favorite. Okay.

JOE: Yeah. Tell me.

CHARLEY: There’s a lot of things I loved writing about the episode. [laughs] The history of the Boxing Day story is maybe the most me-joke I have ever written.

JOHN: It’s so funny.

CHARLEY: It’s so stupid.

JOE: It’s because, here’s a story about two Gorgs who are like, I don’t know here’s a box. Hey, why don’t you get in it.

[John lalughs]

JOE: And now that we have a holiday.

[All laugh]

[crosstalk]

JOHN: I love, “And everyone shouted yay.”

[All laugh]

JOE: Which is also how this episode kind of ends.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Well, at least with Pogey shouting yay. We’ll get to that. We’ll get to that.

JOHN: That’s right.

CHARLEY: That’s some foreshadowing I meant to put it in.

JOE: Yeah. Deliberate. No, I completely agree. I think that the story of being something that’s so mundane and so dumb.

CHARLEY: So dumb.

JOE: Being like this. Obviously this holiday has been around for probably thousands of years because it’s when everyone turns 500. So for it to be based in, they found two boxes in the woods. And they bet you can’t get in it.

JOHN: And I also love like the image of Ma and Pa just standing in those boxes. Like it’s so stupid. It’s just like it’s hilarious. And they’ve saved them like 500 years later. Like it’s so wonderfully ridiculous. I love it.

JOE: It is.

CHARLEY: And whoever on our team created the banners that, like the tapestries, for the story is just oh my god. It’s so fun to write for this team because you know they’re going to make something incredible. Like a Doc Bot when you thought it was only going to be a broom on a Roomba. I love our team so much.

JOHN: And by the way, those, what would you call them? Probably not flags, I guess. Those banners, they were embroidered. I mean, they were so detailed and beautiful. Like they spent so much time making those. Yeah.

JOE: Wow. And for what’s essentially like 15 seconds on screen too, which is, that says a lot about your team.

JOHN: That’s pretty much the set. That’s the set of Fraggle Rock is everything.

CHARLEY: Really.

JOHN: They take that much time. They really do.

JOE: I love it. So part of this tradition, Junior has to choose a box to get into. There’s a short, wide one and there’s a tall, thin one. And boy, Junior just does not fit into either box, but there’re only two choices. We’ll skip to the end of this storyline just so we’re not going back and forth.

But like in the end, he can’t decide. He ends up knocking down the boxes and dancing on their corpses. And Pa’s disappointed, but Ma says, “Oh, you just have to accept your son no matter what.” And then she says, “You dance outside that box, son.”

Now, I’m going to be honest with you. I do a lot of praise of this show. I do a lot of praise of the show, which is why I feel comfortable telling you this. But this was the one part in the series where as fun and funny as I do genuinely do think that this stuff that we were just talking about is, I really do think that for the Gorgs to be in a something that’s so dumb, I love that.

But there’s so many metaphors throughout this episode that are genuinely very important. And I felt this one was just a little bit on-the-nose. It was a little like we’re talking about being outside the box. We’re talking about, do you fit into a box and there’s a literal box.

And I felt like for what Wembley is going through, especially, and Pogey. Like Pogey’s truth that we’ll learn about in a little bit. It felt like it was cheap in comparison. And now here’s what I want to ask you. I know this is just me shouting my–

JOHN: Well, it’s been great, everyone. Thanks so much.

JOE: NO! I’m Sorry!

[All laugh]

CHARLEY: No, you are so entitled to this, but I’ll let you continue. And then I will…Yes.

JOE: So my question though is was that a deliberate move? Was that something where like we literally just wanted to spell this out for you so that we can have our deeper metaphor over here because we’re literally talking about like knocking down boxes in this B plot.

CHARLEY: So three sort of reasons. First I already got into is that this was not supposed to be in this episode. So if it’s the only time you are talking about this, then it’s a good time to be so, so crystal clear. Now that it’s embedded with all these other more, I mean, arguably more subtle talks about identity and expression, yeah, it is more glaring.

The second thing I would say is that we are always sort of writing towards everyone in the audience. So the youngest among us needs to be following along. So it’s sort of like a backstop of like just in case this isn’t clear, we just want to make it like really on-the-nose.

And the last thing is the biggest and most important point of all from Jocelyn Stevenson herself is it’s just stupid.

[All laugh]

CHARLEY: It’s so stupid and it makes us laugh and you are absolutely not wrong to criticize us for it. It is dumb and I will back those boxes with my whole body.

[All laugh]

JOE: Wonderful.

JOHN: I’ll just support one thing that Charley said, which is…ToughPigs friends, I see stuff. I read stuff. Cause I love you guys. I’m one of you. And I’ve seen some of the comments about, you know, sometimes this version of Fraggle Rock is a little more direct and not as, you know, abstract, metaphorical as the original.

But you know, that’s a product of the time we live in. You know, we don’t, when Fraggle Rock, the original series came out, there wasn’t the demographic breakdown that there is today of who’s watching, what age group is watching.

It was not deemed a quote/unquote kid show the way that now shows get divided into that. And even though, clearly, I mean, I don’t think it’s a secret, we make so much of the show for fans and for people who grew up with it. And it is very much driven to those of you listening right now for sure.

I mean, that’s what I am. That’s what everyone on this call is. We’re all fans. We all love it. You know, like Charley said, we have a very young audience that’s watching the show. We have a great responsibility to them and to make sure that what we are making, which is ultimately for them, that the lessons are coming through.

And, you know, the way the kids absorb information today is so different than it was in 1983. I mean, really. And I know that goes without saying. And everyone goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s true. The pace and the lessons, I mean, you know, if this lesson was on its nose, then my goodness, there’s other kids shows where they’re just like spooning it down your throat.

I say that not in a defensive way. I agree with you. I think I’m just saying that there’s a part of us that have to be…We have to remember that that five-year-old kid that’s watching doesn’t have the ability yet to absorb a metaphor the way that we do as adults. And that this lesson is so timely and so important that I think we were really passionate that a kid, like Charley was saying, could really understand that message.

So I will… that’s my only pushback. But I will say that I totally agree with you at the same time. It is the most on-the-nose part of the episode.

JOE: So here’s the real question. Why are you making a show for kids? Just make a show for me. Just entertain me.

[John laughs]

CHARLEY: You’re putting the tough in ToughPigs, and for that, we salute you.

JOHN: There you go.

JOE: [laughs] Thank you.

JOHN: Joe, secretly every episode of this season was made for you, Joe. I didn’t want to tell you until later.

JOE: I knew it. I knew it.

JOHN: Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock for Joe Hennes.

JOE: Oh man.

CHARLEY: When we named Icy Joe, that was not based off of anyone but you.

[Joe and John laugh]

JOE: Okay. Now I’m calling shenanigans. I am not that tall. That’s why. I know I’m not Icy Joe.

JOHN: There you go.

JOE: So thank you for letting me…It was terrifying for me by the way to tell you.

JOHN: No! Come on.

JOE: That there was something that I didn’t love love love love love love love love because it’s so there.

CHARLEY: We’re not like that.

JOE: I know.

JOHN: Commentary’s always welcome.

JOE: Thank you. The Fraggles are preparing for Gobo’s big party. Boober’s baking strawberry pies. Fruit pies? Madness.

JOHN: I know. I love that line.

JOE: What a great delivery that is. I love it. Red is telling everyone to pick a side. Sit on this side of the hall to say “go.” Stand on this side to say “bo.” And everyone’s having trouble choosing a side including Pogey who runs off. We’re going to catch up with them in just a second.

But first we get our first song of the episode. It is “Who Is Me.”

JOHN: Oh wait, sorry, can I just say something really quickly? On that moment.

JOE: Yes, please. Yeah.

JOHN: Something that eats my heart as a director because I hated having to cut it was we had this other great runner that kind of makes sense if you… I mean it doesn’t bother me watching but I’m like oh, we had this great runner of Wrench and Turbo with the confetti cannon.

JOE: Aah.

CHARLEY: It’s still there.

JOHN: That they were completely getting confused about how to do this and like where it should go. And driving Red crazy because they had one job which was to provide the freaking confetti cannon and they kept getting it wrong. And so there was a whole moment after Pogey leaves that got cut with Wrench and Turbo. That’s why they’re there and why later when they set it off it kind of makes more sense. But anyway, I don’t think it bothers anybody but me because I know it was there.

But every time I watch that scene, I’m like, “Grrrr.”

JOE: I was wondering that because you’re right. I noticed that there was something about like the timing of the confetti cannon and then at the very end of the episode they’re doing their American Beauty making snow angels in the confetti.

JOHN: Yes. Yes.

JOE: Which is great. Such a great shot. Yeah, I could tell that there was more to it. But I thought it was just like oh, they’re just having fun with Doozers.

JOHN: Yeah. It’s a product of time.

CHARLEY: It’s the least amount of Doozers in any of our episodes. We always want to service every single part of it because that’s how we’re going to stop war is everyone has their part to play in the world. But this is the one episode we really couldn’t find other ways to edit.

JOHN: And Turbo and Wrench were so confident. That’s what made it so funny.

CHARLEY: Yeah.

JOHN: They’re like, “We got this.” Like these two dummies have no idea what they’re doing. It’s so great. [laughs]

JOE: I love it.

JOHN: Anyway, someday it will see the light of day. We’ll put it on Youtube or something.

JOE: Great. So yeah, we get our song “Who Is Me.” This is an original song for this episode. This song is a bop. Like this is a really great song.

JOHN: It’s a great song. It’s a great, great song.

JOE: Like they’re all good. I really like this song. I listened to it twice today just to while I was preparing here.

CHARLEY: The songs this season are incredible. I love this season’s soundtrack.

JOHN: Yeah. Harvey Mason Jr., Andrew Hey and Sam Ramirez are geniuses. And the nicest thing someone said on the set actually, it might’ve been Jordan or might have been Amanda [Trimble]. I don’t remember. Someone said that. They were like, “Is this from the original series? Because it really could be if it’s not?” And I thought that was the best compliment you could ever give.

JOE: I did think that at first because I couldn’t remember when I restarted the episode today in preparation for this podcast. And you know, I knew there was going to be one original song, and one classic song and I couldn’t remember what it was off the top of my head. And the song started. I’m like, “Oh, here it is.” And then after a few seconds I said, “Well, maybe…”

JOHN: It’s a great song.

JOE: Yeah. I love it.

KANJA: Can I jump in? Can I just jump in? And I have to say this. And this is just as a performer who was on set watching Jordan Lockkhart perform all the intricate, emotional, puppeteering and nuances in his performance as well as hitting marks and choreography. And people who are fans of just pure, amazing puppetry, technical puppetry. But it’s not just technical puppetry, but it is something that I replay in my memory over and over again.

I can’t say enough about Jordan. I mean, I love Jordan to pieces, but if you watch him, I think you’d be hard pressed to find any, any puppet performance as filled with heart and just pure skill and talent as that song.

JOHN: Yeah.

KANJA: If you really break it down. I challenge you to pause any moment. It’s a masterpiece. 

JOHN: Yeah, I agree.

CHARLEY: Hear, hear.

JOHN: Totally. Great.

JOE: You had a good team there over at Fraggle Rock. All you guys. You’re all so good. Honestly. You just really stacked this cast.

JOHN: We’re so lucky. We’re so lucky.

JOE: We’re so lucky. So Wembley is singing the song. He’s basically having an existential crisis during this song. But what’s also cool is he’s kind of surrounded by all these other Fraggle Rock creatures who are singing along with him. There’s rumble bugs and diggits and bubble bubbies and Little Rago is there.

JOHN: Little Rago.

CHARLEY: Little Rago! [laughs]

JOE: We love Little Rago. So there’s a couple that the Muppet Wiki doesn’t have names for and it seems like from what we’re seeing on social media that you all, you have names for everybody. We just haven’t gotten them on the wiki yet. We haven’t figured out what they are yet. There’s like a blue worm looking guy. He’s got like a curly tail, like a ribbed tail.

Do you know what I’m talking about?

JOHN: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JOE: Does it have a name?

JOHN: You know what? Some of those names are just what the puppet builders named them because they just probably needed to give them some name for cataloging reasons.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: And others are just like on the set. Jurgen [Ferguson] or Scottie [Johnson], one of our wonderful puppet wranglers was like, I don’t know, he’s called the blah blah blah. And others are assigned. So I actually don’t know a few of them, but yeah, so but they all have something. They’re all called something.

JOE: That’s what I want to know. There’s also these two, they’re obviously Fraggle-size, but they look kind of like furry Doozers. They’re like round and green, little mustaches. The wiki lists like real names for them. Marshy and Bog, but not like a species name. It seems like you have no idea what they might be called.

JOHN: I don’t remember. I do remember, you’re right. I do remember that they were both

In the original series. I do know that.

JOE: Yeah.

JOHN: But I don’t remember their species name. But you know…

JOE: We’re going to get to the bottom of this.

JOHN: I’m going to find out for you.

JOE: All these. I’m fascinated by this stuff. Like there’s so much culture to the background of Fraggle Rock.

JOHN: It’s the lore.

JOE: And the fact that after all these years we still don’t know. Yeah. And you guys are building cannon. If you’re just, you know, haphazardly naming a species, that’s cannon now. It’s going on the wiki. We’ve inked it in.

JOHN: [laughs] I love that. We have to add to the great Encyclopedia Fragglia. We have to keep adding all this information.

JOE: Exactly. Yeah. Wembley finds Sweet Water Creek. Gets his hair back the way it was. And what else does he find there? It’s Pogey. You’re back, Kanja.

KANJA:  Yeah. And I just remember, Johnny alluded to this before or stated this before, just about how much heart Jordan put into preparing for this episode. And I remember like more than I’ve ever run lines before, Jordan was like, “Come over to my trailer. We’re going to run this scene.” So the number of times that we ran that scene together, this scene we’re about to talk about, it was just too numerous to count. We really figured out the nuance behind it.

And I think one of the things that some people do or do not realize is that Jordan and I knew each other years and years ago. And so there was a point in our careers where Jordan was coming into puppetry and I was thinking of leaving puppetry. And we had a little meeting because Larry Mirkin said, “I want you two guys to meet each other. I think you guys would get along.”

And we actually had this meeting outside. We talk about it all the time. There’s a fountain down in a part of Toronto called the St. Lawrence Market. And we sat in this fountain. I was just talking about me thinking I might want to leave puppetry and him saying, I want you to stick around. And him coming into the business. And so we really leaned into that. So we had this, you know, this friendship and this bond that started at that moment. And we really put every bit of that into that scene.

JOE: And talk about a full circle of moment that you had that conversation at a fountain. And here you are sharing this really beautiful scene at a fountain.

KANJA: Yep. Yep, absolutely right.

JOE: I don’t know if that means anything. But it’s a true fact.

CHARLEY: It means everything. This is my first time hearing this story and it’s just so moving. I mean, the both of you put so much of yourselves into this episode. Kanja, you and I had our separate talk about it and the way…We wanted to get it right and the passion behind it. I love working with actors and performers, but just I’d never seen such sincerity and skill. And just watching you both on set was so moving.

And we’re getting to the most moving moment of all when you guys hold hands. But it just was a delight. It shows in the episode. Like I think that’s part of why this episode, it’s a huge part of why this episode has hit the way it has is the both of you. And knowing that, it’s wow, I’m so moved.

KANJA: Well, you know, thank you, Charley. And something that people should know is that yeah, I had a chance to talk to Charley about this episode and really get their perspective on why they chose Pogey specifically. I think I had said, as a writer, you really are creating a story out of thin air. So you could do anything. You could create a new character like The Great Glitterini. You could do all these things and and you know, they were just really adamant that Pogey was the right character.

So, you know, they had seen this in their own mind before and they realized that this was the right thing and just having that conversation with you, Charley, really meant the world to me. And I do thank you for that.

And Charley was also on set. And so as a performer when, you know, I’m in the moment, don’t get me wrong, but to look up and then you see Johnny there directing and you see Charley there beside–

CHARLEY: Sobbing. Just crying. [laughs]

KANJA: Right. Like just yeah, but as a performer, there’s a different kind of I want to use the word playground, but there’s a different type of playground that’s created when you have truly supportive people. There for you and you don’t have to, you don’t have to perform. I mean, I didn’t have to perform. I just was and I remember like, I had my scripts up, but I didn’t look at my scripts. I didn’t look at my scripts.

For me, it was, it was more important to really get the emotion and the tone of this moment. And Johnny really, you helped me really understand that Pogey’s very confident. Pogey really is okay with how they are. And is just taking Wembley on a bit of a tour of their perspective. It’s how they see the world.

So, yeah, it was a very special moment for a lot of different reasons. It really was like these three individuals around me and that just made me feel so safe to perform.

JOHN: I love that.

JOE: I really love this next moment in this scene where Pogey kind of explains like, I had to decide being a go or a bo and I’m kind of neither. Maybe I’m in between. And Wembley says, “Oh, you’re a wembler like me.” Like Wembley recognizes this, but then Pogey immediately is like, “I’m not a wembler. I know exactly who I am. I’m Pogey.” Like I’ve telling you all this whole time, I’m Pogey. And I love that they both have come to this very similar conclusion, or at least, you know, Wembley is at least asking himself certain important questions. And they’re both coming at it to the same destination, but for two completely different reasons. 

And that keeps to both their characters, that they’re roots in such an honest way. You’re like, in a way that, as we were just talking about with Pogey, that it’s not a deviation from who we’ve set Pogey up to be to this point, just like Wembley. It makes so much sense because Wembley is the person who’s asking questions. And Wembley is the one who, you know, it comes across as I can’t make a decision, but really it’s just being able to see lots of different options and kind of having that kind of decision paralysis.

And I love that. I think that’s beautiful. I think that really says a lot about people in the LGBT community that there is not one path. There’s not one way to be or one place to come from to get there. Yeah.

CHARLEY: Some people know quite early, and some people know, I’m not going to even say late. Some people know later in their lives. And I was, it was really important to us for Wembley is the right character to tell the story, but I think we really wanted to be clear, like Wembley is the sort of who is really deciding, and is unsure and is that person in all of us, the Fraggle in all of us. It’s hard for them. Everything is so uncertain. And I relate to that very much.

But then there are those amongst us who it’s just, it’s so clear. And I think a lot of people see non-binary in particular as something that is like, “Oh, you’re just confused.” And so I think it was really, really, important for us to be like, “No, Pogey’s not confused. Pogey knows themselves.” And maybe there is a journey to get there. I, of course, really love the line that like it took Pogey a long time to get their name. So maybe there was some exploration before Pogey got their name so that they’re so confident now.

But yeah, it was just important to show that they know themselves in a way that you can’t really poke holes in.

JOHN: Mmhmm.

JOE: So, Pogey says that they’re going to take Wembley to see The Great Glitterini. Glitterini is this like purple, furry creature. So, okay, I’m going to tell you, when I first saw the Glitterini, before I knew anything about anything, and I saw this character design, I’m not going to lie, my gut reaction was, that’s it? Like it’s just like this featureless…Yeah, Charley, you’re like cheering. That seems like that was your intention.

JOHN: That’s exactly what we were hoping for.

JOE: Like his head looks like a Muppaphone. It’s just eyes, fur, circle.

JOHN: Yep.

JOE: That’s it. And then, as we will learn in a moment, he can pop up here and there and he can put on costumes and his eyes can turn upside down. All these different fun hairstyles. His arm extends. His belly glows with light. Tell me a little bit about all the decisions that went into everything I just word vomited. 

JOHN: [laughs] I mean, you definitely hit the nail on the head in the sense that, you know, we purposely want The Great Glitterini when you first see him to be a little bit like, “Huh…Oh.” And it’s just Wembley’s perception of him. And then we learn that it’s how the Glitterini feels and sees himself and that’s how he presents to the world.

So we wanted, you know, it’s actually– fun fact, it was actually originally called the Glitter Glob, wasn’t it, Charley?

CHARLEY: Yep, Glitter Glob and his glitter globe. [laughs]

JOHN: Glitter Glob and glitter globe. And it was going to be this kind of glob of like, shape-shifting rock that he changed. And then the more we talked about it, we thought maybe it’s not the best way to go to call him a Glob. That we could make this character more fantastic and even if their name is fantastic and their presentation isn’t at first, that’s kind of part of the fun of it. You know what I mean? So that was the main reason why.

And then we just started getting excited about the fact that he could represent all these different parts of how he feels. And so we had a really great time talking about, “Oh, what if his head could extend and his arms could extend? What if his belly lit up when he’s really excited? What if he could change into different outfits instantly and become different voices, different characters?”

And I have to say, Adam Lambert, who did such a phenomenal job voicing the character, jumped so far into, he was so excited. He was like, “Oh, I like a southern accent for this moment.”

I was like, Yes! And like, he and the chef, he was like, “Oh, maybe he’s a little fancier?” I was like, “Go for it.” Or when the he did that, (in goofy voice) “Or like something else.” (in normal voice) that great Ed Wynn voice. it was really just a sense to say that this character could be whoever and whatever they see themselves as. And that message was just so important for Wembley to see.

But yes, the fact that you thought that he was a little bit like, you know, not that impressive is exactly how we wanted it to appear at first.

JOE: Great, I’m so glad I didn’t insult the episode by accident again.

[All laugh]

CHARLEY: Then Wembley has the line right there. Wembley was like, “I thought you’d be more glittery,” or something along those lines.

JOE: Sure, yeah.

CHARLEY: And again, this is supposed to be about a lot of different identities, but this is a sort of thing where I pull from very personal things. And sometimes this beautiful paradox of being a writer, sometimes when you go very personal, it somehow gets very universal and general and identifiable to people in their own ways.

But for this, you’re looking at me on camera, people aren’t at home, but if you were to Google me–Don’t Google me–But if you were to Google me, I look rather feminine. So, if you look at me, most people who see me see me as a very feminine figure, I mostly get misgendered because of it.

So, I think a lot of people who are binary trans, there’s this idea of passing, that they really, they want to present how they feel. They want to, regardless of how they feel, they know that they are a woman or not that they are a man, there’s this sense of like, “Oh, why do I want to give this to the observer to tell me who I am? I am a woman. I’m a man, or I am non-binary.” However you identify.

So, it was definitely deliberate to make it first be like, “Oh, well, I don’t see what you see,” and to turn it around on the viewer to be like, “Well, Tootse, it doesn’t matter what you see, because I know who I am.” And that’s sort of made the incredible creature that is Glitterini. And yeah, Adam Lambert did a wonderful, draggy, phenomenal performance.

JOHN: He had so much fun doing it. So much fun. It was a blast.

JOE: That’s awesome. You love to hear that too with the celebrities who come in and work with you guys. That they’re not just like, coming in and doing a job. It’s like, they really get into it. They really get into the characters and the world.

JOHN: Oh, yeah.

JOE: Mmhmm.

JOHN: Everybody. We were so lucky to have, especially this season, I mean, last season too. It was amazing. But this season with the challenges we gave the celebrities with some of these characters, and the way we kind of wrote even more for them to do probably than last season. Everyone jumped in with both feet.

And I think, you know, Adam, we were so excited to get first of all, because we knew he would sing that song so beautifully, which of course he does. But also just because he is a theater kid at heart, and so we knew that he would understand the kind of theatrics of the Glitterini.

But also, he is the Glitterini. He lives in this wonderful glam rock world of being non-specific in gender identity and things like that on stage. I don’t know. He just felt like the right person to have that kind of confidence for this character. For sure.

JOE: Glitterini takes Wembley and Pogey into the glitter globe. Not the glitter glob, but the glitter globe.

[John laughs]

CHARLEY: You see, he was the Glitter Glob and the glitter globe was where he lived.

JOE: Yes, of course.

CHARLEY: It was the right thing to die. It had to die.

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: It had to die.

JOE: Once again, like this is, I mean, this should not be a surprise to me, but every time we enter a new location in Fraggle Rock, it’s absolutely beautiful. Obviously, it’s very glittery, but I love the geode patterns that are kind of lining the ceiling. Gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous.

JOHN: Stunning.

CHARLEY: The transition is practical. Sorry, John. You can talk about it.

JOHN: Oh, no, no, no, no.

CHARLEY: But it was like, in person, It was just like, they’re going to think this is CG or some other weird transition. No, it really just separates and is incredible.

JOE: Wow.

JOHN: Tyler Harron, who’s our amazing production designer, just put his full heart into the set for me, and it meant a lot to me because he knew how important this set was for me. And like, what I wanted it to do and look. I was like, it has to be the most fabulous place you could ever imagine of Fraggle Rock and colorful.

But I will also say, like Charley was saying, the reveal was completely practical. The set was completely practical. I want to give a huge shout out to our amazing video effects team that created like 99.99% of the glitter you see falling down the whole episode is digital. And it is amazing the way that they made that glitter look like it is there, and the way that they made it look like it’s bouncing off the characters’ heads and then it’s landing behind them.

I mean, really, and truly, I forget watching it that we weren’t raining glitter the whole time. And so I just love that first reveal where you get all of it at once, and it’s just those glorious, like, kaleidoscope of practical work, video work. It’s really cool.

CHARLEY: Okay, but that 0.1% of that glitter got trailed throughout the place. In everybody’s clothing.

[All laugh]

[Crosstalk]

JOHN: We all were picking it out of our clothing for the next six weeks. Yeah. That’s true.

KANJA: So, no word of a lie. I found one piece last week. No word of a lie.

CHARLEY: No!

[All laugh]

KANJA: Yep. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. It was in my car and transferred somehow. I mean, I just cleaned my car so maybe it got lifted up. But it transferred onto my pants somehow and it fell down. I was like that is ridiculous.

JOE: Wow.

JOHN: Never going away.

JOE: I can imagine getting the scripts for the first time for this episode and going, “Glitterini? We are gonna be spitting glitter for weeks.

JOHN: Oh yeah. There was a lot of like, “Does it have to be real glitter for some of these moments?” I was like, “Yep!”

[Joe and Kanja laughs]

JOHN: And everyone did great.

JOE: Sorry, yeah, it’s Fraggle magic. I don’t know what to tell you.

JOHN: Fraggle magic.

KANJA: That was such a Pogey yep, by the way, Johnny. (in voice of Pogey) Yep!

JOHN: (imitating Pogey) Yep!

[All laugh]

JOE: Apparently the glitter is magical and it can help you express yourself by changing your your clothing. And Pogey tries out a few different outfits. They’re are all very expressive and glittery. I love the fact that one of them is a carrot in a bow tie.

[Kanja, Charley and John laugh]

JOE: Love it. Love it. I don’t know what it is about puppets dressed as vegetables that just gets me.

JOHN: (in normal voice) It’s always funny.

JOE: And the bow tie just gilding that Lilli. Wembley tries a few as well. He does one with silly glasses and a mustache and like a captain’s hat with this big sparkly necklace. Then he goes back to the outfit he was wearing earlier: the robe, the necklace, the side ponytail. And he starts to panic. What if his friends don’t accept him? And we get this great shot of all these different reflections of Wembley telling him that he should just go back to the way it should be and to make a decision. And his emotions start up a glitter-nado.

Which is the most fabulous of all…

JOHN: Which is the most fabulous of all…

JOE: No, go ahead. You say it.

JOHN: No, you say it. You were gonna do it. I jumped you.

JOE: The most fabulous of all natural disasters. What a great line that is. God is that good.

JOHN: Another Charley Feldman classic.

JOE: Take credit for it.

CHARLEY: Take that Sharknado.

JOHN: Yeah!

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: Well, I have to say you know, cause I think the listeners– Hi, everyone– will find this interesting, is that that moment when they’re all trying on the different outfits, the Glitterini and Wembley and Pogey, we did something we’ve never done before on the show which is we used a motion control camera, a full one. We did it a little bit in the “Four Wembleys” episode, but that was a different rig.

This was a full, rented giant piece of machinery that If you don’t know what that means, it means that you can program the camera to repeat the same moves over and over again. So what we did was we would shoot the first initial take and then the camera would memorize the moves. And then it would keep replaying it. That’s how we were able to do the Wembleys morphing into each other in one shot.

We also used it later in the song, when we’re climbing up the glitter mountains where you see Pogey, Wembley full-body. And it’s a very complicated thing to do, because you cannot touch the set. You cannot move anything except for the thing you want to move, which is the puppet.

I held the distinction, my episode, holds the distinction of being the only episode of Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock that shot eight hours of overtime and it’s because it was so hard to shoot those motion control shots. And so we literally shot one night until after midnight, which we’d never done before.

And I want to just give a moment here on this podcast to say how touched I was. I went home crying at night not only because I was exhausted but because I was so moved by the fact that the entire cast and crew and team, everybody joyously stayed late and worked late. And was like, “No, no, no. We have to do this to get the right shot. We gotta  get it right.”

And I felt so guilty because I was like I am the one director who takes us into overtime. But I think it was worth it. It looks so spectacular. But that’s how we did that. That’s how he did those effects was that that was all shot in the set. It was all shot with that motion control camera. I think that’s why you get those flawless transitions and they look so beautiful.

JOE: Wow. Yeah. Yeah, no, that really comes across.

CHARLEY: Johnny, the director, has so much vision. Is such a dream to… I can’t imagine from a performer’s… but just to see it. Cause Johnny knows. Johnny’s been there. Been in the trenches. To know what’s needed to give everyone support but also just such a kind and generous person that everyone wanted to be there because they believe in him. They believe in the project. They believe in the story, especially.

It really was a joy. Like we were exhausted and we got real zany towards the end there.

JOHN: The pizza was good. We ordered pizza that was good.

[Joe laughs]

CHARLEY: Everyone, you’re right. I really don’t think anyone minded because everyone was really, really on board with this episode. And I think it’s because of your leadership.

JOHN: Thank you. I will say that the moment that I was so touched by was there was one crew person who just genuinely was always had a kind of strong face on. Like one of those people like, had a good poker face, I guess you would say. Like you never knew if they were happy or not. And was wonderful, he was incredible to work with. He was a sweetheart.

But you know, I was nervous because I was like, “Oh no.” Because you know people want to get home to their families and whatever. And he had a very serious look on his face. I was like, “He’s mad at me.” And I’m one of those people, if I think one person’s mad at me, I am devastated. So I went up to him and I was like, “Hey, I just want to say I’m so sorry we’re going late. And I hope you’re not upset.”

And he looked at me with tears in his eyes and he said, “Are you kidding me?” He’s like, “This is the most important thing we could possibly be doing right now.” He’s like, “I’m so in right now.” And I was like, (pretend crying) “Okay, I’m glad you’re okay.” [laughs]

CHARLEY: That also never happens. This set is so, it moves so well.

JOHN: (in normal voice) Yeah. Yeah.

KANJA: (in normal voice) But as a performer, Johnny, you know and if you don’t know you need to know, that the love that you have, because you’ve been in the trenches with us and because of who you are, you know it reminds me of there’s a quote in a movie called Donnie Brasco, where this gangster’s saying would you rather be feared or would you rather be loved?

And he’d rather be feared but you know in the case of John Tartaglia, you are completely loved by every single person that I know, including myself. And it’s a genuine love and absolutely, tears in our eyes, because we don’t want you to ever worry. We’ve got your back and if it is a minor thing, a minor thing, like getting to spend more time with you, that is a blessing not something to be upset at. So yeah.

JOHN: I love you, Kanja Chen. Thank you.

JOE: Johnny, you are truly the anti-Donnie Brasco.

KANJA: Yes!

[John laughs]

CHARLEY: I’ve always said that. Johnny Breadsticks, not a Donnie Brasco

JOHN: That’s right. Johnny Breadsticks. That’s my other writers’ room name. I am… well. I’m very… I’m very touched by that. Thank you. And I truly love this cast and this crew too. It was just an excuse to spend more time together. There you go.

JOE: So, not to break up this love fest, but we’ll put a pause on it. I’m sure we’ll get back into it.

JOHN: [laughs] Our group therapy. You should be charging me by the hour.

JOE: [laughs] So while this glitter-nado is going on, in outer space, Sprocket is still trying to get Doc to sing. This is gonna be important in a second. And for those of us who knew like this was the point in which we were like “Oh, he’s asking Lilli Cooper to sing? We are going to get Lilli…”

And of course, like if you don’t know that she’s a huge Broadway star then it might be a little surprise. But for most of us we’re just like, “Oh finally.” And this is what I was talking about at the beginning of this episode. There were two things that we asked for at the end of season one. One was a give Pogey their own episode and the other one is we need Lilli Cooper to sing on this show. And I’m so glad you found an opportunity.

JOHN: I’m so happy you said that because you know what? We were– I don’t want to speak for everybody, I was very nervous about it. Because the original Doc of course did not sing. I’m sure Gerry Parkes could sing but he did not sing in the original series.

And I had an internal fear of like, are we crossing the worlds too much because you know, Doc and Sprocket, even though Spocket’s a puppet clearly. Like they are supposed to represent the real quote-unquote world and Fraggle Rock is its own thing where characters can just burst into song.

So I was a little nervous about it. But then it ended up being one of my favorite parts of the whole series.

JOE: Well, it makes sense for what you’re doing.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Like Doc is singing to Sprocket.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: They’re talking about karaoke. And you didn’t do this, but you’re also in this season starting to play a little bit with Doc and Sprocket and like a fantasy world.

JOHN: Yes.

JOE: We get a couple of episodes where they have a little fantasy of, you know, Doc is picturing or Sprocket is…

JOHN: Is in jail.

CHARLEY: Science jail.

JOE: Science jail. Which is hysterical. Or there’s one where…

JOHN: Captain, when they’re on the boat.

JOE: Yeah. She’s captain of the ship. That’s it. Takes the yacht job. Yeah, so like I would have expected that it would have been a fantasy and that would have been perfectly fine as wel. But I think keeping the fact that she’s singing in the real world. And also, you know, really starting to put a foothold into the world of fraggle rock. Because like we see she has kind of a almost connection to them in the first season with the something up on her camera. She literally gets half her body into Fraggle Rock when she’s crawling through the fraggle hole earlier.

JOHN: Yep.

JOE: And then we get a little tease, we’ll get to this later in the podcast, a little tease at the end of the season. So it really seems like, as the series goes on, maybe Doc is starting to get a little bit more comfortable with being in Fraggle Rock which she doesn’t even know exists yet.

JOHN: You never know.

JOE: You never know. Anything could happen. We’ll see.

[John laughs]

CHARLEY: Also, you have Lilli Cooper. You’ve got this secret weapon. You gotta use it.

JOE: Right.

CHARLEY: She’s incredible.

JOHN: The most incredible. The most incredible singer. Yeah.

JOE: When you asked her, are you comfortable singing, was she like, “No.”

[John laughs]

JOE: Like, “Absolutely not.” I am Doc. Doc doesn’t sing.

JOHN: I think she was surprised.

[Joe laughs]

JOHN: Yeah, right? Can you imagine? She’s like no, it’s not in my character. No, she I think she was surprised because she knew that traditionally Doc didn’t sing. But I think she was thrilled and especially the way this story, you know, her storyline, which which feels like, again Charley so brilliantly had like three different stories going, each relatable to people in different ways, but you know, I think every person can relate to, if you’re not a performer, but there’s some thing that maybe someone made you feel like you shouldn’t do because you wouldn’t be taken seriously. Or you wouldn’t be liked. You wouldn’t be enough.

So I love that her storyline exists on its own, having nothing to do with gender identity, nothing to do with… Just a different kind of identity. Just about who am I if I’m not a scientist. Who am I? Will I be taken seriously if I go and sing karaoke at a bar at five in the morning? [laughs]

It gives her the option to really just be herself in a different way. I love that. I think it was so smart the way Charley wrote that.

CHARLEY: Everyone contains multitudes. Like you are more than just one thing to other people to yourself and you you shouldn’t…And also just we’re a show that does not believe in taking anything too seriously.

JOHN: Yes.

CHARLEY: So it’s really hard if you’re a person who’s like, “I need to be a serious academic or serious anything.” I don’t think anyone is better off feeling like I think you need to loosen up.

JOHN: You gotta laugh.

CHARLEY: Yeah, yeah.

JOE: It’s true. So Wembley is still panicking. Feels like choosing what he wants to be just feels so permanent. But it makes him feel so alone. And then, this is the moment that Charley mentioned earlier. It really is. Like I’m getting chills just thinking about it. Like Pogey just reaches out and holds Wembley’s hand.

JOHN: It’s my favorite shot in the whole thing. I’m so proud of that shot. That’s my favorite thing. 

Yeah, I was so excited to shoot that.

KANJA: I just I want to just to give a huge shout out to Aymee Garcia. Aymee Garcia is the assist on the majority of Pogey. And was instrumental in all of the emotion that comes through the handwork. And I do believe, I could be wrong, but I do believe that Aymee was the hand that actually reached.

JOHN: I think she was. I think so.

KANJA: Yeah, and so yeah, and she’s brilliant. She’s brilliant.

JOHN: It’s probably also Fraggle nerd fun to talk about the fact that we have these things called grippy hands on the Fraggles that most of the principal characters have. And they’re these cable-controlled hands that are only put on for when we need them. That can grab props and hold props.

You know, if you watch the original series, they use it a lot with Gobo grabbing post cards or Boober pulling a scarf away from his neck. So we rebuilt them for the reboot and we didn’t have one for Pogey. We just didn’t think to build one and the wizards in the Calgary creature shop, Jurgen and Scotty and Dina [Meschkuleit] and the entire wonderful team were like, “We got it,” and built a Pogey grippy hand pretty much overnight. And that’s what we use there.

And I think that’s why it looks so sweet and beautiful is that’s a real thing. It wasn’t animated. It wasn’t CG. It wasn’t blue screened. It’s literally just these two beautifully designed mechanized hands holding on to each other. And it’s just I think it’s so touching.

JOE: And I’m usually not a big proponent of defending erasing arm rods, but this is one of those moments where if there were arm rods visible, it would have ruined the effect.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: Because like it’s emotional because they’re real. Because the Fraggles are real. And those are real hands that are reaching out and grabbing each other. And it’s such a simple moment too. Like you could have done anything in this moment and the fact that it’s just Pogey reaches out and holds Wembley’s hand. And like that’s enough.

JOHN: It felt like it was too easy to just do like an arm on the shoulder or it felt like it was just too easy to do an arm around the waist. It felt like it needed to be something that we don’t usually see but also is so universal. Right? It’s like that’s the most like “I’ve got you” calming thing you can do for somebody is to grab their hand like that.

So it just felt like that was the reason to do it and the way to do it at that moment.

JOE: Yeah. And Pogey says, predictably, I’m Pogey.

[Charley and John laugh]

JOHN: On brand.

JOE: Wembley says, “I know that. You say it all the time.” And Pogey says, “And you’re Wembley, no matter what you look like today or tomorrow. You’ll always be Wembley.” And then Pogey explains they like saying their name so much because it took them so long to find it.

This is, Charley, you were talking about this earlier. And what I love about this too is it tells us a lot about Pogey. Not only does Pogey have more of a story, more of a backstory to how they became who they are, that maybe their name when they were born or hatched was not Pogey. And we’re not gonna get that story here and that’s okay. That maybe that’s not for us to know.

And the fact that I think for any of us, we have to kind of find ourselves and gosh, and then for Pogey to take this thing that started out as a silly catchphrase and to turn it into something that’s so poignant. Like it’s something that Pogey wants to shout from the mountains. I want to say I’m Pogey because I discovered that I’m Pogey. And I thought that was just a stupid thing that you said. It was so stupid and it’s not. Now I feel bad for thinking it was stupid. [laughs]

CHARLEY: No, it is also stupid.

JOE: It’s also a little stupid. Yes.

CHARLEY: That’s the beauty of Fraggle Rock. But it also is meaningful. Names are meaningful. It’s the wonderful thing about this life is you get to, if you’re lucky, live long enough to see yourself change in so many ways. And it’s always you. In every moment.

JOHN: I love that.

CHARLEY: And others may not be around to track it, but you’re stuck with yourself. And you can either love who that person is and all of their changes or you know, the opposite is frankly too sad and tragic to think about. So I hope everyone finds the Pogey within themselves, regardless of their identity. Because you deserve to keep exploring who that person is.

JOHN: Amen.

KANJA: And can I just say in terms of the name. I don’t know why I didn’t even think about this until this moment. But the truth is having a name Kanja and having it spelled K-A-N-J-A, I mean I struggled with my name growing up. I was the kid who could not find the bracelet in the gift shop that said “Kanja” on it. Right? I was the kid who didn’t have a shirt that had my name written on it because no one did that.

And I went through a time when I was younger where I actually had my grandmother…I have obviously two grandmothers. My maternal grandmother, she said, “Do you want me to call you by a different name?” And I said yes. So my maternal grandmother called me Aaron for the longest time. And, yep, and even wrote birthday cards with it.

JOHN: Wow.

KANJA: Yep. And it wasn’t until I was older that I absolutely ended up loving my name and the way it was spelled. And it was unique to who I am. And my connection and again, I didn’t even think about this before.

JOHN: I was gonna say you didn’t. You never told us this before.

KANJA: I know. I never, like I’m literally thinking about this in this moment. But this is 100% my experience that I too found my name and I have no problem if people get my name wrong. It’s just a par for the course. It allows me to engage and explain and talk about how proud I am of my name and the way to spell it. And I’m okay with people messing it up because I get to talk with them about it.

JOE: Oh, that’s beautiful.

[Crosstalk]

CHARLEY: [inaudible] …about who you are and what it means to you. That’s amazing

JOE: So Wembley has come to terms with the fact that he’s Wembley and the glitter-nado stops. Thank goodness. We get our second song of the episode here. It’s called “Free and High.” It’s from the original series episode “Wembley’s Flight.”

Is this Pogey’s first song? I mean it’s not a solo song obviously, but is this the first time that Pogey really gets to sing a verse by themselves?

KANJA: I think I’ve said “a party for some pants.” Remember?

[John and Charley laughs]

KANJA: I got to say that ridiculous line. But this is the first time really, yeah, that I’m doing a little bit more singing. And yeah, no pressure. You’re singing with Lilli Cooper and Adam Lambert. 

[Joe and Charley laugh]

KANJA: Along with Jordan Lockhart. Jordan I felt comfortable with, but the other two, I’m like, “Oh my god.” The grade ten choir boy in me was kind of like going, “Oh, you’re not ready for this.” So I’ll let you know my absolute personal approach to it. And again, it goes back to the entire music team and just everyone who supported me with the recording of my piece.

I went into that recording studio and I said, “I’m not going to try to out sing anyone. That’s not my goal here. My goal is to really get the emotion of what it’s about.” And when I tell you that I recorded something with so much love in my heart. I don’t think I’ve ever performed anything with that much love in my heart.

JOHN: You can hear it.

CHARLEY: You can hear it.

JOHN: You can hear it come through.

KANJA: That was all I said I could do is I could just be genuine and honest with my emotion. And that’s what I went into. And I knew that the experts would help me get the right notes. So you know, I didn’t have to worry about that.

And it’s rare. We’re usually quite critical of ourselves as performers. Right? We analyze it and it’s one of the few times where I’ve actually said, “I like how you sound, Kanja.”

JOHN: I think you sound spectacular. And it is that heart. Your verse, it’s pure joy. It’s just it feels like you’re floating on a cloud. It’s just beautiful.

KANJA: Wow, thank you.

CHARLEY: I love how you sound, Kanja.

KANJA: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. That’s wonderful.

JOE: And as you said, you get to sing this song with Adam Lambert and Lilli Cooper, which what a gift both of them are. And I just love… like Lilli, she’s so talented. And like to see her really belting it out. And then when we get the split screen with Lilli Cooper singing with Wembley, I think it’s just such a wonderful moment in this episode. To finally, I know I already talked about this, but to see these two worlds start to get closer and closer together in a way that they’re not even aware of.

JOHN: And not even know that they’re connecting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

JOE: Exactly. Yeah.

JOHN: They have no idea, which I think is so cool.

JOE: Love it.

JOHN: And I love that this song also, I think this is just, it wasn’t purposely chosen for this reason, but I think it’s a nice alignment, the fact that it was originally sung by Richard Hunt, who was a member of the LGBT+ community. And a hero to all of us. He’s my personal hero. And so just to to know that we were doing to do that song that he originated. I don’t know. There’s just something very special about that too.

JOE: Yeah, yeah, that’s great. I mean just to have all these connections and all these talented folks who have their own personal stories that are related to the story that you guys are telling in this episode to be working on it.

JOHN: Yeah. 

JOE: Everyone. It’s just great to have you all involved with this.

So Wembley and Pogey borrow some glitter from Glitterini to take back to Gobo’s party. Now this is an interesting line as well. So Glitterini says, “Oh this younger generation. I’m so proud to be glittering long enough to see this.”

So Glitterini, I mean we kind of figured this out through the context of the episode, but Glitterini, I guess, is specifically this older queer generation that’s kind of bringing in.

CHARLEY: Yes.

JOE: So tell me a little bit about what’s important about that for this character.

CHARLEY: You mentioned this line. It’s important. It’s something our queer elders are absolutely important. Not only to help guide us but also because unfortunately it is so very rare. We don’t have the Richard Hunts in our lives anymore because of a great plague that hit our community. Hit gay men hardest of all.

And so we have a character like Glitterini who gets to be here and see all the changes in the community and get to enjoy the…We have a lot more to do. There’s a lot more that we’re fighting against but at least he made it this long to enjoy the beauty and the acceptance that at least we have gotten to. All the glitter that we’re glittering right now.

JOHN: And I think that last line, the “Keep glittering, babies” last line was such a perfect example of the collaboration of Fraggle Rock that Charley was there on set that day, was visiting for actually for the week, weren’t you? You were there for the week.

CHARLEY: Got to be there a whole week.

JOHN: Yeah, it was just wonderful and Ben Durocher, who was puppeteering Glitterini, who does such a brilliant job with that puppet. And that’s a hard puppet. That’s a big puppet and it’s long. Ben has these long, like insanely long giraffe arms and so he was perfect to do it. And he did such a beautiful job of it.

But that was such a moment of like Ben and Charley live on set coming up with that last line. That last line wasn’t I don’t think in the script. That day you came up with it together. Yeah, and it was such a beautiful moment. And then Adam heard it in the recording studio afterwards and just was like laughing so hard. He was like, “What a great line.” And then his delivering of it worked. So it’s just like these different worlds coming together to make this one moment happen that has so much meaning. Like Charley was saying because of what it’s saying. I just love it. I love that moment

JOE: Fantastic, I love it

KANJA: I just want to jump in really quick because Johnny, what you said just reminded me of something that I meant to say earlier and I totally forgot. But when you watch the behind the scenes video of that moment when Glitterini is coming forward and then Pogey and Wembley are coming to join Glitterini, you don’t realize that you have Ben Durocher in Glitterini. You have Kira Hall and Andrew Cooper assisting on Glitterini. You have myself who’s behind Jordan Lockhart and there is a very narrow gap in which we can actually get through.

And when you watch it, you realize that there’s so much going on in terms of the puppeteers looking at each other and wheeling around each other on these rollies. But you know on the camera it just happens. It is so complex and so complicated. And to your point, Johnny, it just looks so effortless and it just, you really believe in these characters just being.

JOHN: You know the other example of that, but actually I’m so glad you just brought that up, Kanja, I think also if people can’t really see in the video. I wish you could find an angle that shows that also in the song when Glitterini kind of launches the glitter to the glitter piles and the piles start moving around, I had this image in my head of like very theatrical all the piles of glitter moving and chasing each other and he’s creating this stairway.

And you know, it’s like 10:45-11 p.m at night, everyone’s exhausted and our amazing crew jumped in. Our ADs were down there. People were literally like crabwalking under the set, rolling around. I wish people could see me right now. Rolling around these piles of glitter. You know and just, again, jumping in. So literally that moment is like seven puppeteers and nine crew all working around each other to try to move.

Just puppet magic. Puppet puppet magic.

JOE: Brilliant. Wembley and Pogey return to Fraggle Rock. Wembley explains that Pogey is not a go or a bo. Maybe something else, leaving it open-ended. Open to interpretation just like Wembley because Wembley’s now got this new look. Gobo asks if it’s permanent, but Wembley sort of confirms like “Maybe I’ll bring it out every so often.” And then, and again like could go any direction for Wembley and that’s a good thing.

But I also love the fact that you do bring this outfit back later on. This wasn’t just a “Oh, no, that’s the episode where we talk about that thing.” Like we’re actually starting to write new character decisions for Wembley and it’s gonna carry through. So that’s fantastic.

JOHN: I’m so glad you said that, Joe. Because that brings up the point we talked about in the writers’ room which was we felt very strongly that it would be more true to life and more impactful to have, in both Pogey’s case and Wembley’s case, to have these characters be characters that we see on the regular.

That this isn’t “the very special episode of Fraggle Rock.” We create a new Fraggle who represents this and then, to your point, maybe we never see them again. And that’s not to slight series that have done that. We just felt like in the world of Fraggle Rock, it was more important to have it be characters that we know and we love. 

And this is another part of them that we get to know and love and that we can continue on. So even, to your point, about like in, I think it’s episode nine, in the radish ball when you see Wembley with the side ponytail.

And I think Gobo says that Wembley looks great. That’s it. I don’t think we ever talk about it. No one says, “Wembley, wearing a ponytail.” It just becomes part of who he is and that I think is the magic of the show. And that we were able to do that. That we were enabled and then able  to do that, to have these characters have these new parts of their personalities and just have it be part of the show.

JOE: And this isn’t the first time you’ve done this. In season one, in “The Glow,” Boober has his whole metaphor with his glowing tail.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOE: And that tail glows every so often. It still happens.

JOHN: That’s right.

JOE: It’s a part of the overall Fraggle lore and also more importantly a part of Boober’s character and in this case Wembley’s character.

JOHN: That’s right.

JOE: I love that. These characters can still grow and evolve and, Yeah, we don’t have to go backward. And we don’t have to be married to the status quo. The status quo is boring.

JOHN: Yeah, exactly.

CHARLEY: If we–Sorry.

JOHN: No, no. Say it. Go for it.

CHARLEY: There’s some shows where a character has to reset. A lot of animation does that, where you can’t really see the characters grow. And I love the opportunity for Back to the Rock where, there’s certainly in the classic episodes, Sidebottom comes back and that’s certainly an aspect of Boober, but like not huge changes happen to our gang. So we’re a little different. We have an arc to our story. We have a full season to see them explore and grow.

And I love that about our storytelling is that we can do something like that where this comes back and is a part of and you grow like you do in real life.

JOHN: That’s right.

JOE: That brings us to the end of this episode. My one question I have is I always wonder this when the fraggles meet a new character who does not live at Fraggle Rock. Is will we see them again? Like is there gonna be a reason to have The Great Glitterini come to Fraggle Rock or to start crossing over back and forth? Or mixing and matching all these other characters that we we see in the extended rock? What do you think?

JOHN: I hope so. I hope so. Usually it comes down to in this case with Glitterini or Jamdolin who came back this year with Daveed, and it comes down to people’s interest and availability and schedule. And when it comes to characters that aren’t performed by celebrities, because yeah, there’s just so much that to goes into a celebrity-driven character because you have to think about their schedule and their recordings.

But when it’s a character that we just discovered, that we love, then yeah. And I think that Glitterini is that character for sure even though he’s voiced by Adam. I think Adam had such a good time doing it that I think if we said, “Hey, we want to bring Glitterini back for another episode,” I think he’d be thrilled. I’d like to think.

CHARLEY: Brett Goldstein would be back immediately. [laughs]

JOHN: Brett Golstein we’re going to hire as a puppeteer.

JOE: Do you think he likes Fraggles? Do you think he had a good time? I don’t know. [laughs]

JOHN: He’s gonna be, I mean if I have my druthers, he’s gonna be a puppeteer someday. Because he’s actually really good and he loves it so much. He does. He was so much fun to work with this year too.

JOE: Well, we’ll get to that one. That’s coming up soon. So do any of the three of you have any other thoughts about this episode or memories from filming this episode that you wanted to share before we move on? Did we cover it all?

CHARLEY: I guess, shout out to my dad the day after Father’s Day for giving me the line for Ma Gorg. Ma Gorg says, “You don’t have to understand. You just have to support.” And when I came out to my dad literally, he told me that. And so thank you Stephen L. Feldman.

JOHN: I think that’s one of the most… I’ve seen that line, a lot of folks online actually mention that line.

CHARLEY: Really?

JOHN: Yeah, and how that that is the most, one of the most impactful lines because it’s so true. Fraggle Rock has always been about acceptance and love and everyone’s welcome and I think that that line especially from the gorg– from Ma Gorg, right? I love that Ma Gorg has become who she’s become in this version of the show. I really do.

JOE: We’re gonna have a lot to talk about with Ma Gorg coming up later in the season just because she goes through…I mean, talk about not staying with the status quo like she goes through a lot of growth.

But I think, the line that you just quoted, Charley, it’s obviously specifically, kind of pointed toward Pa Gorg who really doesn’t understand these things. And Pa doesn’t change so easily.

CHARLEY: He doesn’t understand most things.

JOE: Yeah, really. Yeah.

[John laughs]

JOE: Beyond the stuff that you’re trying to teach in this episode, he really doesn’t understand anything. But he will never understand Junior. He’ll never understand the boxes and the very best we could do is maybe try to convince him to like don’t worry about understanding just accept and just show some love.

JOHN: Sorry, I was just going to say, Charley, that I think something that we talked about in the room that’s really important is about Pa Gorg is that he’s also a victim of generational trauma and generational expectations. That’s something we… and like going back to what we’re talking about before about little kids being so innocent when they try on their mothers clothes, there’s nothing ingrained in them that thinks that that’s not quote unquote right or wrong until an adult says so.

And so that’s kind of Pa, right? The reason he feels this way about Fraggles, the reason he feels this way about the kingdom, the reason he feels this way about Junior all of that comes from what he’s been taught and incorrectly. So yeah. Pa’s not… I think he’s an interesting character because I don’t think he in his heart is a horrible person at all. I think he’s just been taught the wrong things. And so it’s lovely to see the little bit of…the stair step he’s had this season. He’s getting closer to becoming a better person. And I think so much of that is Ma. That Ma has really stepped in and said, “I’m not gonna let you be the final decision maker on these things anymore.”

JOE: Pa needs therapy, I think.

JOHN: [laughs] Very much so. He needs Fraggle therapy. He needs to spend a couple days in Fraggle Rock. Maybe that’ll happen in season three.

JOE: Mmmm. Season three. We’ll see.

KANJA: I think there’s something really wonderful too about the relationship between Ma and Pa Gorg. And it reminds me of a discussion I heard about Homer Simpson. It’s the idea that Pa is so flawed as a character and we look at him and it’s like how can anyone like Pa? But the simple fact that Ma loves him is what makes us like Pa.

JOHN: Yeah.

KANJA: Because Ma is someone who we can truly connect to with on an emotional level. We’re like, this is a good person and she has given her seal of approval with her love towards Pa that you’re like okay, there’s something in there that we don’t know yet that she see.

JOE: Mmm, I like that.

JOHN: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

JOE: Yeah, like there’s something yet to be revealed. Not just the fact that they love each other, but why do they love each other and should we love them? Should we give them permissions to become better Gorgs.

CHARLEY: I believe they have it in them. I mean Pa’s the closest thing we have… I don’t want to call him a villain, but Pa is certainly an antagonist. And we did sort of have to reset Pa at the start of this season to make sure there’s some conflict in this world. But I do think he stands in for an optimism we have in this writers’ room and in this show that people can learn and people can change. And no one is really too far gone.

JOE: Yeah.

CHARLEY: He’s standing in for a lot there and that’s sort of the incremental step of you don’t have to understand. You just gotta support. A lot of people change their mind because of someone in their orbit, their relative, their friend. They realize, oh, it’s not so weird or scary to know someone who’s quite different. And sometimes people just don’t find the empathy otherwise. They need someone that is in their life. So that’s Pa Gorg and I’m very curious what kind of a new dad he’ll be. Spoilers.

JOHN: Mmhmm.

JOE: [gasps] New dad. My goodness. All right, well again another reason why, Apple TV, if you’re listening, give us a season three. We gotta see what this thing looks like.

JOHN: Yes!

JOE: So as we’re wrapping this up, we have a question that we like to ask all of our guests. And if you can each tell me, how do you plan to make this world a little fragglier?

KANJA: You know, for me, people may not realize this, but I spent the majority of my working career as a teacher, as an educator. And so puppetry was something I never gave up on. It was something I absolutely loved.

And you know 20+ years as an educator but still never giving up on my absolute dream of possibly doing something that was creative. And John Tartaglia and the Jim Henson Company and all the people who saw whatever they saw in me and gave me that opportunity, allowed me to pivot my entire life and I left my teaching career. But I’ve said to myself that I want to do a lot of what was at the core of what I did as a teacher. Which is to try to improve the lives of children.

And I did that in a classroom and community context when I was a teacher, but I want to be able to do it globally. So following my dreams is a big part of it. Being on Fraggle Rock is a big part of it. And, you know, for my own children I’m able to demonstrate that you can follow your dreams and you can live a life that is filled with joy in all aspects of your life. And I think that’s a pretty fraggley thing to do.

CHARLEY: Hear, hear!

JOHN: I love that.

CHARLEY: I don’t want to cop out and say like I hope I continue to write Fraggley, no matter what I’m writing on. I love so much about this room. This room means the world to me. The most supportive, kind, silliest, sweetest people I’ve ever worked with. But we go into every room with, Okay, what do we want to talk about? What do we want to do for the world to make it better?

So if I could even in really…like I do a lot of different kind of shows, I’d like to think there’s always room for any kind of show, be it a more adult, action related show or a more

Fraggle co-viewing experience, that there’s a way to be like, no, I want peace on this earth. I want more people to have rights that are not being able to be taken away. And humanity to be recognized. And that is how I will try. And then also not take myself so seriously, which is extremely important as a Fraggle.

JOHN: I love that. I think in that same vein, I think this show, working on it and performing on it and everything, has reminded me of the incredible importance of not taking things too seriously. And of spreading joy the way that the Fraggles do. Celebrating the moment the way the Fraggles do. Like we were talking before, like the let’s throw a party because Gobo’s going away for an hour.

And I think that that definitely is something like I have tried to kind of carry past shooting the show of like being authentically yourself in a goofy moment and encouraging others to be as goofy as you are or just celebrating the silly, goofy moments. Where before I probably would’ve been a little more insecure about, a little more self-deprecating about it or whatever. I think it’s just owning those moments a little bit more.

And I think the biggest thing I think is finding the hope. We live in a very scary world right now. We live in a very difficult world. We’re inundated every day about the climate’s falling apart. Animals are dying. This is happening. There’s wars. There’s… it’s just overwhelming to be a human right now.

I know you guys will talk about this, but that last episode of the second season was very personal in many ways to a lot of us because it is hard to find the hope at this point in humanity. And I think the Fraggles naturally are filled with that. And so I think it’s just trying to remind yourself every day of the hope. If the Fraggles can be hopeful about the world and about the future, they’re facing all these horrible things, but they still are hopeful about that things will get better. I think we could do the same thing.

CHARLEY: Amen.

JOE: Kanja Chen, Charley Feldman, John Tartaglia, thank you all so much for being here. Thank you all so much for the gift of Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. It’s been such a joy to get to talk to all of you about this really, honestly amazing episode of television. Not just a great episode of Fraggle Rock, a great episode of TV history.

It really has been a gift to so many people and I’m so happy it exists and I’m so happy that I got to chat with all of you in such great detail about it.

JOHN: Thank you, Joe. Do you feel better now also that we talked in therapy of Boxing Day? Do you feel better? You got it off your chest?

[Kanja laughs]

JOE: A weight has been lifted.

JOHN: I want to make sure that we leave… Okay, good.

JOE: I’ll tell you, I’ve knocked down my box and now I’m dancing on top of it after having gotten all of that out of my system. So thank you.

JOHN: I’ll just say really quickly for those listening, you can’t see Joe, but his eyes were so wide and fearful while he was bringing it up. But I applaud you for being honest in how you felt. I really do. I think that’s so important.

CHARLEY: I’m just glad that now that we’re all friends, I know exactly what to get you for your birthday.

[All  laugh]

JOE: An empty box? [laughs]

CHARLEY: Uh, not just an empty box. A box that you can smash and dance upon.

JOHN: There you go.

JOE: Oh yes, of course. Thank you. I will text you my shipping address.

CHARLEY: Good. Excellent.

JOE: Perfect.

[Fraggle Talk theme music plays]

JOE: Fraggle Talk: the unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast is brought to you by ToughPigs.com. Produced, written and hosted by Joe Hennes.

Fraggle Talk art by Dave Hulteen Jr. Fraggle Rock mark and logo characters and elements are trademarks of the Jim Henson Company. All rights reserved. Transcripts provided by Katilyn Miller. Fraggle Rock theme song, written by Philip Balsam and Dennis Lee, is used with permission. Special thanks to the Jim Henson Company, Apple TV+, and the entire Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock Family.

Be sure to follow ToughPigs @ToughPigs on all social media platforms including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. And please consider supporting us on Patreon or by buying merchandise on Teepublic. For more Fraggle podcast fun, listen to Fraggle Talk: Classic on your favorite podcast app.

Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time down at Fraggle Talk.

[Theme music ends]