This is part two of a three-part interview. Click here to read part one. Read on for part two, in which Mark Saltzman talks about writing for The Jim Henson Hour (and why it didn’t work) and The Muppet Show: On Tour!
[Note: This interview was conducted over the course of two conversations and has been edited for clarity.]
TP: Moving on a little bit, you were one of the writers on The Jim Henson Hour.
MS: I was. The ill-fated Jim Henson Hour.
TP: It was a brilliant show. Probably a little bit ahead of its time.
MS: You know, there was a recent Muppet thing that was on ABCâŚ
TP: The sitcom.
MS: Yeah. There was always this feeling that the Muppets werenât ânetwork.â They kind of hovered on the edge of PBS and syndication, and there was something subversive about the Muppets that way. Like prime time is not ready for them. They blow things up, they throw things at the wall. Thatâs one reason, and the Sesame Street association means âOh, this isnât really for grown-ups. This is childrenâs television. Whatâs it doing on in prime time?â
I think the ABC show reinforced this, that the Muppets stay edgy when theyâre on the edges. When itâs front and center in prime time, itâs kind of been proven thatâs not really where they belong. There have been specials — I remember in the â90s there was a prime time 25th anniversary of Sesame Street, and I think that did pretty well. It was so packed with stars. They were taking no chances, it was just star after star to keep things moving and keep the ratings up. But you canât do that every week. Part of that contributed to why The Jim Henson Hour didnât have a go.
TP: Do you remember some of your specific contributions to The Jim Henson Hour? Did you create any of the new characters?
MS: Oh boy. I remember there was a Barbie doll parody. Thatâs all very me.
TP: Bootsie.
MS: Yeah, Bootsie. You know, it was a writerâs room, so itâs hard to say what was yours and what was mine. The Sesame Street stuff was all freelance, so as far as the contractual Writerâs Guild elements, you had a script and your name was on it. On The Jim Henson Hour, or really on a lot of network TV, if thereâs a writerâs room the Guild doesnât like a whole list of names âwritten by.â It works out, but generally everybodyâs writing everything. Thereâs not the kind of individuation like writing a play or writing a song.
Yes, I look back and I think one side of my sense of humor is that gay, campy [sensibility]⌠Mocking Barbie dolls, Iâd say that was probably a lot of me. When that Rambo doll came into that sketch [in the “Videotape” episode].
TP: Yeah!
MS: You know this stuff. Iâm impressed!
TP: Oh, Iâve seen all of this. I was one of probably⌠not very many people who watched every episode when it aired on TV, and just being a Muppet fan, we held onto our tapes over the years.
MS: Yeah. You may have it more at your fingertips⌠I donât know, itâs something I donât have in my head a lot because it was a disappointment. You kind of donât go back on that. That was â88?
TP: It aired in â89.
MS: Okay. Another thing when I look back on that — this is one of the last Jim Henson projects. It failed, it was one of Jimâs last things, and I just remember being sick all the time with the flu. I havenât replayed it. I think it was also not a great time for the company, and then the sale to Disney happened not long after, right?
TP: Right, it was within a year that Henson started working on the sale to Disney.
MS: If that show had been a TV blockbuster, that could have changed the path of the empire in a way. You know, you sort of wish that when Jim died that it had been on a real upswing of everything — that this show had been a hit, that Dark Crystal and those movies had been [as successful as] Star Wars.
If he had lived, I think these things go through their curves up and down, but this was not an up at that point, and itâs just one of the sad things of his whole life. He was so young, and this Disney thing was coming at him, and The Jim Henson Hour⌠It should have been better. And I know it would have. You think of the kind of movie that he would have gone on to do.
TP: And with the technology of today. The Jim Henson Hour, especially, was very high-tech and showcasing the current technology. So just to think about what he could have doneâŚ
MS: I remember that being an issue, now that you mention it. There was a lot of talk: âNo, no, no, the charm of the Muppets is the low-tech.â The magic of Kermit is heâs this green washcloth with ping-pong balls. Why do I care about him? The high-tech was what was going on underneath, the video monitors that the puppeteers used to see themselves. That was kind of a breakthrough from earlier TV, so now you could have absolute camera contact and eye contact between the characters, which is movie acting. But what was visible was felt and feathers.
Now that you mention it, I remember it was like, âOh, thereâs all these tech goodies.â Jim was sort of enchanted by all this cutting-edge tech. Now Iâm thinking, who was the other side? Who was saying âNo, no, no?â I think I can hear myself saying it: âAll that technology is cold and the Muppets are warm. This stuff is smooth and shiny and the Muppets are scratchy. This just doesnât fall in together.â
If you think of Star Wars at the very beginning, it was technology but the people and storylines were very retro, from Saturday morning serials. It was that combination of new technology in hyperspace but using the hoariest old tropes from Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon. That combination I always thought was the stylistic magic. Itâs familiar but itâs new. Itâs not threatening with the technology, itâs giving you the kindly old mentor and the farm boy with a sword. And still they donât mess with that.
I do think that the coldness of [the high-tech effects on The Jim Henson Hour], even with the magic of technology⌠Really, whatâs more magical than making people love a washcloth? (Laughs)
TP: Even just starting with the premise, which is that the Muppets are still doing a variety show, but theyâre in this high-tech control room set, which is all done on a bluescreen.
MS: Yeah. See, when I think back on that, that was a bad idea. The Muppet Show was set in a kind of theater that didnât exist anymore. It was a vaudeville theater, and they were doing a vaudeville show in the â70s. It was completely retro, what The Muppet Show was doing. And yeah, now that weâre talking about it, Iâm thinking, in the â80s they should have been doing a â50s TV show, you know?
TP: Yeah, that would be interesting!
MS: Yeah, and maybe shoot it in black and white. (Laughs) Thatâs extreme, but if they got out of the vaudeville house and it was Kukla, Fran, and Ollie. To use all this technology to recreate old television, with that sputtery look. That might have been fun.
But I donât think you want the Muppets with cutting-edge technology. The most memorable case of â if you call it âtechnologyâ â in all the Muppet movies to this day is Kermit riding a bike.
TP: That one always gets people.
MS: It always gets people! You think, yeah, you couldnât do that without radio technology and whatever. But the end result was not 50,000 multiple Kermits and twisting them and seeing the world through Kermitâs eyes. It was the simplest, simplest image of Kermit riding a bike, and to get that required technology, but it was invisible.
Itâs the same as how Jim gave dimples to Kermit. Itâs inexplicable. The delight was getting Kermit on a bike and using all the technology and hiding it. On The Jim Henson Hour we can safely say it was not hidden. Two million screens, screens inside screens â itâs all coming back!
TP: Did you ever write for Waldo, the computer-animated character?
MS: That was supposed to be the big, exciting thing, and it was exciting, but when I look back on it now, what an error. Thatâs not a Muppet. Thatâs Star Wars, that kind of a gizmo creature.
TP: Yeah. Itâs cool, but itâs a little bit of a novelty.
MS: Itâs just not our world. Not the world of puppets with felt heads and eyes that donât move. What Iâve learned along the way is you design the eyes so without moving they have all kinds of expression. They design them that way, so theyâre slightly crossed⌠They have all the tricks. That kind of design is ingenious. Whereas, if I had that computer-generated gizmo, if I had $300,000 to buy one, I could do that. Yeah, but could I put Kermit on a bike?
TP: Thereâs still something that feels tangible about it.
MS: Yeah, and that, I think, is the magic. It feels easy in retrospect, and I think post-Star Wars everyone was so techno-hungry and crazy for it that that little creature emerged. And you had to remind me that this character existed — but I donât forget Bert, I donât forget Ernie.
TP: Do you remember writing for the guest stars at all?
MS: I remember k.d. lang because I was a fan. I remember how natural she was with the Muppets. Some of these performers, some of the celebs, feel very comfortable. Some of them canât take their eyes off the puppeteers down there. You have to stop and say, âLook in Kermitâs eyes!â
TP: âEyes up here!â
MS: Itâs really hard! Itâs not a question of smarts, itâs just, down there is Jim Henson!
TP: Thereâs a person talking, and also thereâs a puppet, so you have to look at the puppet.
MS: Some people need to be reminded of that, and some people just canât make that leap of imagination to talk to this washcloth with ping-pong balls.
TP: k.d. lang has a number where she sings âI Love Trashâ with a bunch of Muppet garbage bags. She seemed to have pretty good chemistry with them.
MS: She did! I just remember she walked into camera range and just put her arms around Muppets. She was so comfortable interacting with them as living beings. That made an impression.
TP: Ted Danson was on the showâŚ
MS: I donât remember being there when he taped. One of the things about taping the show in Toronto: all the Americans on the show, we didnât have the immunity to these Canadian germs. We were in our hotel rooms getting the flu as much as we were on the production. It may have been that I was down for the count for Ted Danson.
TP: Some other guest stars: Louie Anderson, Bobby McFerrin…
MS: Louie Anderson, yeah⌠âMy Dinner with Godzilla.â
TP: Did you write that one?
MS: Yeah.
TP: Thatâs a really funny sketch!
MS: We had to make it âCodzilla.â
TP: I wondered about that. That was just a copyright thing?
MS: Yeah, just to make sure it was considered parody. If you want Godzilla in your show, you probably have to license Godzilla. That such a minor note it wasnât anything anybody argued about. It was just âMake it a parody.â He was really good and instinctive.
Bobby McFerrin, I think he had a learning curve as far as dealing with Muppets. Heâs not an actor. Heâs almost in a certain musician bubble when heâs performing. Heâs kind of solo. How you play a scene with another actor was probably new to him at that point. I donât know if thatâs apparent onscreen.
TP: Well, one thing about the format of the show is that the guest stars are not always in the physical space as the characters because theyâre on monitors. I think Bobby McFerrin has one sketch where heâs interacting with Muppets and the rest of the time heâs on monitors.
MS: Yeah, the screen thing didnât work. I remember Dog City. That was [written by] Tim Burns, and everybody got very excited about that.
TP: Dog City is great.
MS: That seemed like âOh, if this were only the show!â (Laughs)
TP: It must have been a very expensive production.
MS: At that point it was network finance, so you could go there.
TP: You wrote for The Muppet Show: On Tour, the live costume character show. How is that different from writing the characters when theyâre puppets?
MS: Basically, those shows were for really little kids, those live shows. Part of writing those was audience participation, which just wouldnât be a part of Sesame Street or The Muppet Show. You had to slot in places for that. That was part of what the parents were bringing the kids to do, not to sit politely with their hands folded like a young peopleâs concert. The point was that they were going to be jumping up and howling and screaming and having a great time. There was a number of times you had to slot that in, times that the kids could be⌠released.
It was interesting. In Chicago I actually went to one of them. I went with Jim, and it was the first time this edition was on its feet in front of an audience, so we werenât figuratively taking notes, but mentally we were. I remember talking about how hard it is to pull focus on a character in that form, in an arena, without a severe follow spot and a blackout on everything else. You might not get a laugh on a joke because the kids are looking all over the place.
TP: They might be busy watching another character in the background.
MS: Yeah. When youâre working in film you just push the camera where you want the audience to see. Even in theater we have our ways, where you can pull the audience over there â all the other actors freeze, the lights dim and thereâs a light on Tevye, you know. He says his speech, he gets his laughs. I remember that being harder and trying to figure that out with Jim. The lighting isnât that sophisticated in these arenas, and itâs playing to a [prerecorded] track, and all the characters are so visually intriguing, so that seemed to be an issue. Not a life or death issue, but as we were walking out we were talking about that.
I think Jane Henson was in charge of those live shows at Muppets. That was her domain, and I remember interacting with her more in the course of the shows. It was kind of a big event for Jim to be there for quality control, but day to day it was Jane. The first draft of the script would go to Jane.
TP: Did you try to take advantage of the fact that the characters could use both their arms and move around the whole stage, as opposed to on TV?
MS: It wasnât that big a difference. The people inside those costumes were often dancers, and the fakeheads were so big you couldnât really have them doing somersaults, but when theyâre doing a musical number you could add some dance to it that you couldnât do on Sesame Street. Having them with legs and all that opened up dancing, but even within that, itâs pretty limited. They can do-si-do a little and do kicklines, but Iâd say thatâs the only element added, movement and dance.
TP: I notice on Muppet Wiki, in the program of that show, you co-wrote a number called âRappinâ Fozzie.â Do you remember that?
MS: I donât! [Laughs] Thatâs gone from my mind. What Iâm thinking is âWe had rap back then?â
TP: Itâs 1984, soâŚ
MS: Really early, then, like Run DMC. Are you old enough to remember that?
TP: I saw the second Muppet Show on Tour in 1985, when I was very young.
MS: You were probably jumping on your seat and participating.
TP: Oh yeah, Iâm sure!
MS: Itâs a weird art form⌠Did you see this documentary that one of David Lettermanâs writers did on industrial shows?
TP: Bathtubs Over Broadway!
MS: Yes! What a great obsession he has. In the â70s and early â80s Iâd gone to some of those because Iâd have a friend who was dancing in them or something, and it really was something where you went and you were sort of agog at the production values. And then you forgot about it. It was just like a commercial.
It was like a smirky little thing amongst Broadway performers: âOh yeah, Iâm doing the Milliken show, Iâm doing bathtubs.â Obviously it made a huge impression on this guy â and but for him, this entire ancient culture would have just disappeared without a trace. The people who did this show just started dying off.
TP: It is this very weird, specific thing, but people worked really hard on them to make them entertaining shows.
MS: And they had their stars, and those writers, and top quality Broadway stars. If you werea star on Broadway, youâre going to be offered the Milliken show. It was a few daysâ rehearsal, one morning in your life because it was the breakfast show, and a huge payday. Part of what you get for being a star was the Milliken show. And they brought in good writers. It was just not for the public, so it was invisible, but this guy salvaged it.
Maybe somebody out there like yourself could figure out how this âshadow show businessâ with huge money and giant productions and so much affection [came about]. When did it blossom? Is it dying? Who are the stars? Thatâs a documentary waiting to be made. Iâd watch that.
TP: Theyâre still doing Sesame Street Live, which has been going forever.
MS: Yeah, and beyond Sesame Street, who else is doing them? Those arena shows, when you think of those venues⌠What were they doing on Saturday mornings? They were probably empty. So they went, âOh yeah, book your Sesame Street show.â You can book the Staples Center for half of what a rock band would.
TP: I never thought about that aspect of it, but Iâm sure youâre right!
MS: Using that dead time, probably. That became preferable all around, and for Sesame Street Live thereâs a new audience being born every second, so that might be at least, if not a documentary, something to explore.
TP: We might have to track down some of that history.
MS: I wrote the first one with Fred Newman, right?
TP: Thatâs what it says on Muppet Wiki.
MS: That just came back to me. He was also there with Jim when we launched it that first time in Chicago. That probably was the only one I did. Those years, between Sesame Street and the Muppets, it seemed like I was always busy on something. As a freelancer youâre not used to saying no to anything, but I really was overbooked. I can remember having to say no to Jim personally one time.
TP: Wow. Do you remember what project that was?
MS: No, I really donât. I just remember saying, âNo, Iâm too busy working on Muppet stuff. I canât meet a deadline.â And I was. I canât think of one that I did under duress or through clenched teeth. I really did love every single one of the Muppet things. I kind of had heartache on The Jim Henson Hour because we kind of knew this was off-track from the get-go. It was grafting this long-form with a Muppet Show thing. It was trying to stitch together some things that didnât want to cohabitate.
TP: It seems like there was a lot of compromise between his vision and what the network was asking for.
MS: Itâs just the network sensibility and Muppets⌠I remember it was very confusing how to get the old Muppet Show sensibility onto glossy network primetime. I think the technology was supposed to be something that would help it, that would be cutting-edge.
TP: That was supposed to be the hook.
MS: Yeah, and⌠it wasnât. [Laughs] But still, the writing I did â the Bootsie sketches, Codzilla â it was so much fun.
TP: Itâs definitely a fan favorite. Itâs maybe not as cohesive as The Muppet Show, but thereâs still so much good stuff there.
MS: Within it, if you extract this sketch or that sketch. Oh, Little Women! When the new Little Women movie came out I just kept thinking of that Little Women sketch. Do you know what Iâm talking about?
TP: Iâm not sure!
MS: Itâs like 40 seconds long, and theyâre tiny. Theyâre Lilliputian. Itâs âAnd now, Little Women,â and theyâre tiny.
TP: Was that something where it cut to a show on one of the channels on the monitors?
MS: Yeah! And that was kind of a Masterpiece Theater of Little Women and theyâre getting increasingly angry about having to live this way.
TP: I remember one where it was War and Peace. A bunch of Muppets hit each other with bats, and then it says âNext week: peace.â
MS: Yeah! Those quick blow-offs were really fun, and that tech thing of switching channels allowed you to do that stuff. Like Laugh-In, it was really fast-moving stuff that was more network-y, especially post-Laugh-In. At that point in TV history you could start doing more filmic cuts.
It occurs to me now we were probably backtracking in technology. We probably cut to ten bits like that in a row, but they were doing segues in between, and thatâs dead time in network TV. It moves so fast. Now we learned, 30 years later, where the moments are. (Laughs)
TP: On a Muppet series, thereâs also the stuff thatâs happening backstage, between sketches.
MS: Right, and even on The Muppet Show, you just cut. Youâre not traveling backstage. So that was kind of part of the problem there, was having to segue all the time from this screen to that screen when we could just be cutting. But once you were in the sketch, it was pretty good!
TP: Yeah, thereâs a lot of really entertaining stuff there!
MS: Iâm glad it survived somewhere.
Stay tuned for the third and final installment of this interview! Thanks as always to Muppet Wiki for images and info! Click here to talk to a washcloth with ping-pong balls on the Tough Pigs forum!
by Ryan Roe – Ryan@ToughPigs.com